What if?

[cee-dee]

OK, so no-one wants to argue any more but what if.........................

A couple of years back referendum was called about either staying in or leaving the EU and the majority voted to leave. Since then arguments have raged back and forth and the remainers are agitating for another referendum.

What if they had another vote and this time the result was to remain BUT, then the leavers started agitating for another making claims for this, that or the other? Would the remainers claim "We had a democratic vote so that's that, we remain IN".

We had a democratic vote before though? The result of that was to LEAVE so if a second vote went the other way would any notice be taken of leavers wanting yet another?? If not, why not?

Shouldn't a vote on something be IT as regards any result not a cause for those who didn't like the result to agitate for another? Where does it end?

By that reckoning it could result in a parliamentry vote for a constituency which ended in a close vote for one person then having those opposed to then claim it was "close" so they demand another go? How many "go's" do you want?

[joe_bloggs*]

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@cee-dee wrote:

I suppose I'd better not refer to JC in case people get the wrong Idea? So Lets have a look at Jeremy Corbyn eh?

Seems he didn't play rugger much or I mighty have met him when our school played his. After school (where he only got 2 E grades) he worked for a very short time at a newspaper most will never have heard of never mind read. (Yep, I have, I lived a few miles from there). After that, what then? Well mostly he's lived off the back of others! That is, he's "worked" where taxpayers of one sort or another paid him!

He "volunteered" for a while and swanned around the world getting the hang of being an "activist" before coming back here and getting involved with the trade unions. He went to the hotbed of activism, the London Polytechnic where he dropped out after a year because of arguments with those "teaching".

He then became a councillor and from then on never looked back........

So, he's been all sorts of "activist" = troublemaker, supports the Palestinians (!!!!), has voted against his own party while pursuing his leftist way and supported Militant (!!!!)  He's supported those blokes who bombed the Israeli embassy and along with Red Ken had links with the IRA, Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams.

He lost a vote of "No confidence" by a large margin but ignored it saying it wasn't constitutionally legitimate.

Hey this sounds like a charming fellow and when he's criticising others, it's surely a case of the pot calling the kettle Black?

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Sounds a right loser this bloke,no wonder no one votes for him....

[fallen-archie]

Who JC? Nah he is the new Cliff Richard, turns up lip and says Hi!

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

Population Density per square mile.

France.....100

Italy....197

Germany....235

United Kingdom....650.

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Why stop there?

Japan .... 873

Belgiun .... 919

Jersey/Guernsey .... 2185

[upthecreekyetagain]

Taking the full list by GDP per head

France .... $43,800

Italy .... $38,100

Germany .... $50,400

United Kingdom $44,100

Japan .... $42,000

Belgium .... $46,200

Jersey/Guernsey .... $56,600

Little correlation between population density and productivity.

Scotland has a population density of just 174 per square mile - are things so much better there than the South East of England with a density ten times higher?

[fallen-archie]

In answer to your question creeky it depends upon how you judge things. Scotland benefits in many ways from the population density in particular the natural environment, despite this,in and around major towns and cities driving is a chore, commuting is a chore. In England every patch of land is subject to the claws of developers, all keen to cash in on our housing boom, this has decimated wildlife and leaves kids playing on their Xbox rather than outside, why do we need all these new houses, where are these new home owners coming from? The indigenous population is pretty static give or take the age profile yet we keep building, Why? What is an acceptable density in your eyes?

[j_uk643]

Not heard of the London polytechnic ?
Heard of the polytechnic of central London, but that's not the one 
Try north London polytechnic now a university 

No rugby lol, 

Shocking two EE's  and not a single CSE in metalwork to be seen?
Next thing you know it will be revealed he was a machine operator replaced by punch cards 
and reduced to a steptoe and son 

Or it will be said he wasn't ever married , nudge nudge 

That would be like the nurses and doctors at hospitals who treat cardiac patients then ......publicly funded 
The soldiers sailors airmen and policemen who defend you......all publicly funded 
Living off the backs of others tuts 
Not those who prefer cash business obviously 

Despite firm clear words of never negotiating with terrorists , Margaret Thatcher's government seldom had a year in which unofficially they didn't have a dialogue with the IRA and others 

Course several Israeli PM and others have at times been on Britain's most wanted list for terrorist acts, incl killing British soldiers and civilians to try to bomb Britain out of its mandate which they succeeded in doing, including prime minister Begin who had a large price on his head dead or alive before Britain called it a day 


Was that like opposing the war in Iraq where all that WMD was found ?
As one inspector noted , there were more chemical weapons under my kitchen sink 
And how did that one turn out ?

lol

[j_uk643]

Preston density app 2,500 

shockingly dense

When Speight created Alf Garnett he did so to parody what would be called the working class Tory
Someone who votes against their objectively viewed self interest in a belief they belong to a different social strata 
Turkey's voting for Xmas. Not all viewed Alf the same way of course and he transitioned to other lands like Australia and even the US where he became Archie Bunker ....no pun on the name obviously 
The same character appears in Life of Brian as a prisoner strung up in shackles, but still vehemently in favour of tough Roman punishment on people like himself suggesting crucifixion, a common form of punishment was too good for em, 
The pub landlord is yet another 
Some people even apparently believe they were little lord Fauntleroy in a previous life and act accordingly
I have to admit it has a certain amusement value lol

[cee-dee]

Well now, it seems "the vote" isn't going to go ahead? So, what now? Where do we go from here?

As I've said before, how can we "negotiate" with those who say they've gone as far as they're going and won't go any further? Something's got to give?

It's all very well for those who don't really want to leave the EU (for whatever reason) saying a better deal should be negotiated but just WHAT can be re-negotiated? The same goes for those who "Want another vote". If another vote went for LEAVE again, what then?

Those wanting another referendum don't want to accept the result of the last one, they want to remain come what may (!!!) so really, what's the point of another? It seems to me that now the EU has really shown its hand that another vote may well be that LEAVE may well be a lot more overwhelming?

[fallen-archie]

The commons was tonight descending into farce with one of Brightons MPs claiming his five minutes of fame by walking down towards the speaker and removing the mace! I know it’s school room stuff but how silly is it? For all the talent that was in the chamber not one of those hem was capable or willing to take on the EU despite the expertise they claim to have! This is a shambolic government matched by a shambolic opposition neither of which have any redeeming features to speak of! They are experts at telling us how to behave but are a pathetic bunch when it comes down to their own actions.

[cee-dee]

Well I dunno what anyone can do in the face of Juncker saying that the existing deal is the only deal possible and that there was no room whatsoever to renegotiate.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I don’t know what people expect.  Nobody seems to be putting forward any alternatives to the deal that is currently on the table that would be acceptable to the EU.  I can’t see any deal being agreed upon by the politicians.

You have one group that wants to remain in the EU so will vote against any deal that doesn’t include us staying in the single market and the customs union.

Then you have the ‘hard Brexiteers’ who won’t accept any deal that includes the free movement of people, (staying in the single market).

Then there are the ‘Irish’ who won’t accept either border control between the states and at the same time won’t accept different terms for NI and the rest of the UK.

Then of course there is the part party politics plays with those more interested in ‘damaging’ either opposing parties or the leaders within their own party than they are in deciding what’s good for the country.

With so many conflicting ‘interests’ there will never be a majority for any sort of deal.

Which brings me back to my proposal at the start of this thread, that it should be up to the people to make the decision now that we know what the options are.

The simple choice is:-

Leave with no deal

Leave with the proposed deal

Don’t leave

[cee-dee]

Well, that was a pretty fair assessment of the situation.

Calling your three options 1/, 2/ and /3 which do you prefer? Me? Reluctantly, /2.

Hypothetically, what would happen if there was no clear majority for any of those options but the totals for 1/ and 2/ far outweighed option 3/?

[fallen-archie]

Unashamedly nicked from twitter

The world seems nowadays so full of mediocre people who achieve power at all levels without display of apparent ability."

Theodore Dalrymple.


I reckon we should remain for now!

[upthecreekyetagain]

Personally I’d go for option 2

[astrologica]

Option 1.

The EU would be 'frit'

to death..they would soon come running.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

Option 1.

The EU would be 'frit'

to death..they would soon come running.

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And offer what - that’s the problem.

What sort of deal can the EU offer that would win a majority vote in Parliament?

I can’t think of one, what deal would you like to see that has any chance of being accepted by most?

[astrologica]

They want our money Creeks. They could offer some concessions on the free movement of people....unlikely though, because other countries would want the same. They could also end their unfair fishing practices..also unlikely because the French are circling already.

Their arrogant stance has not moved since the referendum. To see Theresa May go crawling back to them for more crumbs today...it's humiliating and demeaning for her and more importantly, for this country. She has been 'negotiating' for two and a half years and achieved nothing.  It's time to try another approach..to walk away and keep our £35 million. I think she would gain more respect if she did.

[astrologica]

I intended to ask Creeks.....what would you like to happen?

[upthecreekyetagain]

What I would like and what is possible are two totally different things.

I’d like to have all the benefits of being a member of the EU without any of the disadvantages.  The single market without the free movement of people, the customs union but with the ability to make our own trade deals, the supremacy of our courts and Parliament with the ability to appeal to the European institutions if we don’t like our decisions, sole access to our fishing grounds but with the freedom to fish in European waters, the right to live and/or work anywhere in the EU without giving other EU members the same right to live/work in the UK . . . . . . and, of course, not make any contribution to the EU budget but still receive EU investment.

I’m only guessing but I presume the above terms would probably gain a Parliamentary majority in favour but anyone who thinks the EU would, or could, agree to any one of those terms is living in cloud cuckoo land.  Unfortunately without such an unrealistic agreement no deal will win a Parliamentary majority.

Having read through the terms of the agreement that is on offer I really do think it is the best we can expect and enables the UK to leave the EU in an orderly manner.  

[upthecreekyetagain]

Incidentally the deal negotiated with the EU includes the UK leaving the common fisheries policy and becoming an independent coastal state with the right to make its own deals over who can fish in British waters and how much can be caught.

This bit was probably one of the most difficult parts of the deal to negotiate and doesn’t sit well with countries like France and Spain.

It is likely that the UK will/would have to make concessions when deciding on granting fishing rights however because so much of our fishing industry depends on exports to EU countries.