This unfolding tragedy around Europe

[fallen-archie]

We pay politicians to act on our behalf, throughout Europe and the rest of the developed world the plight of those fleeing war, famine, religious persecution etc is being ignored. Surely it is not beyond the realms of sensibility for us to expect, even demand a collective humane response by the international community to agree action in those countries where terrorists reign. Allowing and encouraging the victims to flee is wrong, they deserve and should be given the right to live peacefully where they were born and like the rest of us have the freedom to travel abroad and see other cultures. The Russians and Chinese stand by and watch while quietly selling weapons to these terrorists. The west interfered yet never considered the impact they would have. It is time the UN grew up and did what it was formed to do.

[astrologica]

They could join the Syrian Army. I saw some footage on TV recently of Syrian Army soldiers fighting....very bravely. Not all these migrants are from Syria. They are fleeing conscription in other countries. All these young men are fit and healthy...they contrast sharply with the millions of young men that bravely signed up to protect our country and freedom in two world wars. I do know that the war in Syria is very complicated, with different factions, even within Islam itself. But those differences will still be there, but in Europe instead.

Not a good prospect.

[upthecreekyetagain]

So you are suggesting these refugees should join the very organisation, the Syrian army, that many are fleeing from! - great idea!

[tobmarti0]

Fallen Archie, you bemoan both the honouring of terrorists and also the lack of a Mandela type figure in North Africa. In the beginning ,Mandela was a convicted terrorist who supported armed conflict and terrorism in a bid to overthrow a corrupt regime and system of government. His ideals and perspectives changed and he embraced dialogue and peaceful negotiation.One could draw paralells with the situation in the North of Ireland. Therefore your comment is contradictory. If you honour Mandela then you must also recognise his terrorist roots .

[tobmarti0]

As a footnote and more on topic ,the latest refugee crisis/tragedy is as a direct result of terrorism from Isis, Britain and America , all three. Created by all three and now Britain is reaping the results of it's ever turning War Machine . Deluded arm chair patriots are easily brain washed by the media , it shows a lack of awareness and intelligence.

[astrologica]

Granted, some are fleeing the Syrian Army, but not all. As I said, I am aware that there are different factions fighting in Syria, so it is not a simple matter. All those fleeing conscription should go home and sort their own countries out. This country is (or was) what it is because our young men fought for it. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Not all refugees from Syria are fleeing from the Syrian Army, not all are fleeing from ISIS nor all from the Syrian rebels fighting both of the prior groups.

To suggest however that those refusing to be conscripted into the Syrian forces, (an armed force that Amnesty International say are committing war crimes and crimes against humanity by attacking the civilian population), should go home is surreal.

[bookhunter2007]

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@astrologica wrote:

Confirmation Bias?..

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Yes, everyone does it to varying degrees:

“In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.”

For instance, if an org or individual was to harbour xenophobic or racist views, then they would search and publish info which “justifies” their prejudice; namely seeking material that demonises or dehumanising their target and confirms the stereotype they wish to promote. This may even extend to spreading blood-libelesque hoaxes. This is common in Hungary, whose government are propped up by a Neo-Fascist party – Jobbik

http://www.channel4.com/news/refugee-crisis-hungarys-problem-with-xenophobia

On the other hand, orgs such as Amnesty will highlight cases that are more sympathetic and counters the stereotype promoted by the right-wing media, Fascist parties, and idiots who share Britain First-type posts.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/press-releases/refugees-stuck-in-no-man-s-land-on-serbiahungary-borde...

Alternatively, I suspect most on RT would see Orban as a hero, "telling it how it is", and counters the propaganda from "bleeding-heart liberal do-gooders". All whilst conveniently turning a blind eye to his Adolf-esque suggestion that all refugees should be sent to forced-labour camps.

This whole thread is a very interesting experiment with “confirmation bias”...When some people become very vocal at media “bias” when it shows the refugees in a sympathetic light, yet remain silent when refugees are “blood libelled” or dehumanised as “cockroaches”, it is very, very telling indeed.

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

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@**caution**opinion_ahead wrote:

Hmm, I'm not sure that really encapsulates the situation, Creeky.

"Shelter" can be obtained in the first EU country reached.  The block of flats in your example is not over the road.  It is a long way away, and they have chosen to travel to knock on CD's door (in this example) because it is not simply shelter that they want.  It is a whole new life, with housing and education and health care and pensions, for themselves and their children and any unborn offspring yet to come.

Again, I make no comment on whether this is reasonable or not.  I simply point out the situation is more than a request for shelter from the danger.

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Of course the situation is such that those who have fled from danger are looking for more than just a place of safety.

That strikes me as being perfectly reasonable.  

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Sorry for the delay replying.  Have only just come back to this thread.

It may be reasonable ... but that doesn't mean someone else is obliged to supply it.  A single mum living on a run-down estate may reasonably prefer to live in a leafy suburb somewhere.  Upping sticks and arriving in the area wouldn't get her far though.

And, Bookhunter, I do understand your point re the "us v them" argument not being constructive in these cirs.  But ... maybe that is easy for you and me to say, and much harder for those already at the bottom of society here.  If you were homeless with young children and your place on the housing ladder was worsened as refugee families were given accommodation, you might reasonably feel aggrieved.  Or, if you were a person with a debilitating medical condition whose benefits had just been stopped because apparently the country cannot afford to support you yet can suddenly take in thousands who have never paid anything into the system, you might reasonably feel upset.

Re the point about the response being "warmer" if it was puppies we were talking about.  Well, the difference there would be individuals might be moved to help but the government would not use tax payers money on the situation.

In any situation like this, some people see the individuals and some see the mass.  The media oscillates the view between the two, which softens some and hardens others.  I suspect all of us would help someone in need on a personal level, because that is the human response.  On the other hand, as a species we are very sensitively tuned to expect fair give and take (which is why "cheaters" in society tend to be shunned) and the media play on that can have widespread influence on attitudes.

There is no simple answer.

[bookhunter2007]

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@**caution**opinion_ahead wrote:

And, Bookhunter, I do understand your point re the "us v them" argument not being constructive in these cirs.  But ... maybe that is easy for you and me to say, and much harder for those already at the bottom of society here.  If you were homeless with young children and your place on the housing ladder was worsened as refugee families were given accommodation, you might reasonably feel aggrieved.  Or, if you were a person with a debilitating medical condition whose benefits had just been stopped because apparently the country cannot afford to support you yet can suddenly take in thousands who have never paid anything into the system, you might reasonably feel upset.

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Q.E.D....This whole "Us vs them" rhetoric is always "...vs the refugees".

No-one's mentioning or getting upset about the £6-100billion "too big to fail" subsidy which gets spunked on propping-up the banks.

No-one's mentioning or getting upset about the billions lost in underselling Royal Mail.

No-one's mentioning or getting upset about the multinational corporate tax-dodgers who cost the exchequer in excess of £120 billion.

But people ARE getting upset at a few million being spent on helping desperate people fleeing war zones.

As far as i'm aware, "austerity" was not imposed because of refugees, but rather 'the many' paying the price for the recklessness by an already wealthy few within the banking sector.

Bit of perspective needed in terms of the budget I think.

Besides, the "charity begins at home" brigade only seemingly become charitable towards "home" when discussing Johnny Foreigner.  They soon forget their "charity" once dialogue moves onto "scroungers" with "flat screen tvs etc etc" living on sink estates.

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

But you missed my point ... which was that austerity is most pressing for those with the least ... and they have the most to lose, in terms of housing and low paid work opportunities, by an influx of refugees.

Ask a person with adequate housing, work, health, etc, if they would be willing to see refugees allowed in and the answer may be yes.  Ask a person with none of the above, and they may feel differently.  If refugees are given housing, someone else who would have got it will not, at least in the short term.   So where practicalities are concerned "us v them" is more real than in the hypothetical arena of a discussion board.

And this "budget" you talk about is completely open-ended.  Is there a cut-off point at which you would deem it had become unacceptable?  Taking people in solves nothing long term and has to be the most expensive option.

Now, again, I'm not saying we shouldn't, but I can see both sides of the argument ... and just because one side appears to have the moral high ground, that doesn't automatically make it the best solution when weighing up the impact for everyone concerned.  

[fallen-archie]

Isn't it also reasonable to expect different individuals to react in ways which reflect their specific circumstances, surely that is human nature and they do not deserve to read the kind of over emphasised sensationalism which also smacks of personal insult just because they disagree with your blinkered simplistic view of how we should all react.
It is a human tragedy and it is frustrating and shameful to witness but it has no more to do with the post office sell off than Dr Who has to the medical profession.
As Captain (The bank manager) Mainwaring would say " Stupid Boy"

[bookhunter2007]

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@**caution**opinion_ahead wrote:

But you missed my point ... which was that austerity is most pressing for those with the least ... and they have the most to lose, in terms of housing and low paid work opportunities, by an influx of refugees.

Ask a person with adequate housing, work, health, etc, if they would be willing to see refugees allowed in and the answer may be yes.  Ask a person with none of the above, and they may feel differently.  If refugees are given housing, someone else who would have got it will not, at least in the short term.   So where practicalities are concerned "us v them" is more real than in the hypothetical arena of a discussion board.

And this "budget" you talk about is completely open-ended.  Is there a cut-off point at which you would deem it had become unacceptable?  Taking people in solves nothing long term and has to be the most expensive option.

Now, again, I'm not saying we shouldn't, but I can see both sides of the argument ... and just because one side appears to have the moral high ground, that doesn't automatically make it the best solution when weighing up the impact for everyone concerned.  

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I'm not missing the point.  20,000 refugees spread around the country really doesn't make that much of a big difference - not when compared to the cuts imposed, and large chunks of social housing sold off to Dave's mates. Would folks here be happy if Champions League and International football matches were banned to avoid large influxes of foreigners putting pressure on local infrastructure? Besides, the "budget" to help Syrian refugees has been diverted from funds earmarked for overseas aid.

We could be having this conversion in the 1930s about Jewish refugees, or in the 1970s about Ugandan Asians. The BUF tried to exploit the situation with Jewish refugees, as did the National Front with Blacks and Asians in the 70s.

Rinse and repeat.

And when people resort to circulating the sort of propaganda you'd expect from Far-Right groups, I think they've already conceded the "moral high ground" - That goes a bit further than "weighing up the impact concerned for everyone" imo.

[bookhunter2007]

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@fallen-archie wrote:
Isn't it also reasonable to expect different individuals to react in ways which reflect their specific circumstances, surely that is human nature and they do not deserve to read the kind of over emphasised sensationalism which also smacks of personal insult just because they disagree with your blinkered simplistic view of how we should all react.
It is a human tragedy and it is frustrating and shameful to witness but it has no more to do with the post office sell off than Dr Who has to the medical profession.
As Captain (The bank manager)Mainwaring would say " Stupid Boy"

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Posting to yourself again?

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

My point is ... it won't make a big difference (if any) to you and me, but it will to some people.  You and I have nothing to lose.  We have housing, we don't need food banks, we aren't scrabbling for zero hrs contracts.

Football fans are not comparable as they bring income upfront and in their wake, their arrival can be predicted and catered for in advance to minimise disruption, and their stay is limited to a couple of hrs.   It's a different ball game!

Yes, there are far right groups, and it would be preferrable if the media did not fan the flames.  

Again, I repeat, I'm not saying we should not take people, although I do think it should only be an intermediate step on the road to a longer term solution because the potential number who might seek to migrate over the next decade (say) is vast.

[bookhunter2007]

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@**caution**opinion_ahead wrote:

My point is ... it won't make a big difference (if any) to you and me, but it will to some people.  You and I have nothing to lose.  We have housing, we don't need food banks, we aren't scrabbling for zero hrs contracts.

Football fans are not comparable as they bring income upfront and in their wake, their arrival can be predicted and catered for in advance to minimise disruption, and their stay is limited to a couple of hrs.   It's a different ball game!

Yes, there are far right groups, and it would be preferrable if the media did not fan the flames.  

Again, I repeat, I'm not saying we should not take people, although I do think it should only be an intermediate step on the road to a longer term solution because the potential number who might seek to migrate over the next decade (say) is vast.

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Yes, see your first point. But then again, i'd rather be scrabbling for a zero-hours contract, rather than fleeing napalm attacks. "Desperate" situations are always going to be relative. It's worth noting once again that it wasn't refugees who sold off the social housing stock, introduced zero-hours contacts, or made 1 million people reliant on food banks.  

Football fans are a very good comparison - there's been quite a bit of trouble involving Dutch clubs of late, thus increasing police costs when trouble flares up - which does happen rather frequently.

And there's no argument from me on your last point.

[tommy.irene]

http://news.sky.com/ Top Stories Sky News Breaking News: Scuffles As Migrants Wait At Croatian Border Chaos reigns as Croatia says it is redirecting migrants to Hungary and Slovenia - but those countries insist they won't take them.

[fallen-archie]

If only we could wave a wand and give them Hope, opportunity, freedom from persecution and a chance to influence their own future.
Maybe it should be a fundamental human right.

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

For sure, desperation is relative, though, whilst individuals do not fear chemical attack en masse here, there are those imprisioned by life-threatening violence, day in day out.  However, scale and the source of the attack matter ... and I completely accept your point.

It's worth noting that it was not the poorest here who had any direct hand in causing the refugee crisis.

To compare the ongoing problems being coped with by the Greek/Italian/Hungarian authorities to that posed by football hooligans does, I feel, underestimate the scale of the crisis.  Also, is it not easier to deal with those whose disorder is purposefully breaking laws as opposed to those causing disruption due to sheer weight of numbers and desperation?  I'd say so.

[bookhunter2007]

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@**caution**opinion_ahead wrote:

For sure, desperation is relative, though, whilst individuals do not fear chemical attack en masse here, there are those imprisioned by life-threatening violence, day in day out.  However, scale and the source of the attack matter ... and I completely accept your point.

It's worth noting that it was not the poorest here who had any direct hand in causing the refugee crisis.

To compare the ongoing problems being coped with by the Greek/Italian/Hungarian authorities to that posed by football hooligans does, I feel, underestimate the scale of the crisis.  Also, is it not easier to deal with those whose disorder is purposefully breaking laws as opposed to those causing disruption due to sheer weight of numbers and desperation?  I'd say so.

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Fair points. If it's not the poorest here causing the refugee crisis, and it's not refugees who caused austerity....why do the real culprits seem to escape the finger-pointing?

The football comparison was more to do with 'numbers' accepted for asylum and pressure on infrastructure.  During Champions League matches up to 30,000 'foreigners' descend on 2-4 concentrated areas. With that in mind, 20,000 Syrian refugees dispersed at numerous locations throughout the country are not really going to have much of a significant impact on local infrastructure.

[merehazle]

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@bookhunter2007 wrote:

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@fallen-archie wrote:
Isn't it also reasonable to expect different individuals to react in ways which reflect their specific circumstances, surely that is human nature and they do not deserve to read the kind of over emphasised sensationalism which also smacks of personal insult just because they disagree with your blinkered simplistic view of how we should all react.
It is a human tragedy and it is frustrating and shameful to witness but it has no more to do with the post office sell off than Dr Who has to the medical profession.
As Captain (The bank manager)Mainwaring would say " Stupid Boy"

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Posting to yourself again?

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He is posting to you.   An opinion that is his. Some might even think YOU protest too much  Compassion regardless of ''practicality's'' will not stand. Except for BH. 

I would like to know what kind of profiling measures the clueless May person has implemented before allowing a single person into our country? Will the Home Office carry out thorough background checks? Will any new arrivals have to claim asylum as opposed to affording each and everyone indefinite leave to remain with a  British passport? Also will the right to claim benefits be withdrawn until each application has been processed? Lastly we have a massive housing shortage, will Miss May confirm that nobody from Syria will be given preferential treatment over our own homeless and destitute?

Our local Pontins are keeping the summer staff on through the winter months as apparently they have agreed to accept the refugees. Nice 6 months in a holiday camp free board and lodgings, swimming pool entertainment and tv in every room. They never thought of that for our homeless. Perhaps BH will go along to advise them too?