This unfolding tragedy around Europe

[fallen-archie]

We pay politicians to act on our behalf, throughout Europe and the rest of the developed world the plight of those fleeing war, famine, religious persecution etc is being ignored. Surely it is not beyond the realms of sensibility for us to expect, even demand a collective humane response by the international community to agree action in those countries where terrorists reign. Allowing and encouraging the victims to flee is wrong, they deserve and should be given the right to live peacefully where they were born and like the rest of us have the freedom to travel abroad and see other cultures. The Russians and Chinese stand by and watch while quietly selling weapons to these terrorists. The west interfered yet never considered the impact they would have. It is time the UN grew up and did what it was formed to do.

[start-the-fire]

yes nice simple video, and i am sure you do not agree with all of it. Which is a main problem at the moment who do you believe and which stats do you believe-

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5632/uk_muslim_population_of_26_million_by_2051

on my recent visit to north france france I was outstanded by the number of people from the arab states-

again do we trust the stats-

http://enzaferreri.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/france-will-be-40-percent-muslim-in-2030.html

On the issue whether immigration leads to a net gain is also questionable, especially where the long term impact is uncertain.

Certainly there is nothing wrong in a varied culture, and sensible integration, but as in America there will be a build up of places where we can not go due to the colour of your skin.

I worry for the future of our NHS, Pensions,our culture, and how true integration will actually be.

There is also the fact that there will be a proportion of immigrant/ refugees that will not want to integrate, impose their values onto us.

Only a small number of wars can be attributed to have been caused by religion, I fear that will change in the not to distant future, and though probably totally unfounded it will be a fear difficult to shake.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@start-the-fire wrote:

yes nice simple video, and i am sure you do not agree with all of it. Which is a main problem at the moment who do you believe and which stats do you believe-

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5632/uk_muslim_population_of_26_million_by_2051

on my recent visit to north france france I was outstanded by the number of people from the arab states-

again do we trust the stats-

http://enzaferreri.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/france-will-be-40-percent-muslim-in-2030.html

On the issue whether immigration leads to a net gain is also questionable, especially where the long term impact is uncertain.

Certainly there is nothing wrong in a varied culture, and sensible integration, but as in America there will be a build up of places where we can not go due to the colour of your skin.

I worry for the future of our NHS, Pensions,our culture, and how true integration will actually be.

There is also the fact that there will be a proportion of immigrant/ refugees that will not want to integrate, impose their values onto us.

Only a small number of wars can be attributed to have been caused by religion, I fear that will change in the not to distant future, and though probably totally unfounded it will be a fear difficult to shake.

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Well I don't trust stats that make no sense - for instance if we take the projection for the growth of the Muslim population in France:-

The claim:-

2009 - total French population 67m - Muslims 2m - non Muslims 65m

2030 - total French population 70m - Muslims 28m - non Muslims 42m

Forgetting ridiculous arithmetic projections made in that link how can anyone explain a 14 fold increase in one section of the population and 33% decrease in the other - I suppose there might be a massive conversion drive 🙂

The other link in your post is making similar prjections based on a short period projected over a longer period.  Using percentages in the way they do is just too simplistic and deliberatley misleading. 

[start-the-fire]

I agree creeky, but having looked around at the stats it seems obvious that the muslim population of france has grown quite fast in the last 40 years, and is between 8-11% of the population, this will only increase, and though i would not imagine the growth will be at the same rate , It will have have a big effect on France, for the better or worse i can not say.

Certainly the comments on the latter article opened my mind to others views.

Looked for the truth on islam on whether islam tolerate religions and found this article, i dont for one moment believe that most muslims think this way but im sure there are a minority that do.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/myths-of-islam.htm#islammeanspeace

and for balance

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/207/viewall/tolerance-of-prophet-towards-other-religions/

Point is that there is so much information and stats out there it is sometimes hard to get the truth from the fiction., though there is no smoke without fire as they say.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Fire - I do expect the Muslim share of the population in Europe to increase over the coming decades - not due to their birth rate but because of immigration - the majority of displaced people likely to come to Europe are from mainly Muslim areas.

What always seems to be assumed when talking about the birth rate in the Muslim community settled in Europe is that second, third, fourth generation will all follow the Muslim religion in other than name alone.  My personal experience of colleagues and friends doesn't support this.  Certainly most of those who have Muslim parents would describe themselves as Muslim but are no more practicing Muslims than are those who call themselves Christian.

[joamur_gosof]

I can promise you all this...no matter how hard you try ,you will not find an unbiased fact or statistic ...and that's why I take zero interest in either of them.

A fact,can be personal and a truth, but never to all

A statistic is a rough guess from an advertising point of view

If we take these things on any level as is,then you are being led.

Proof is what your eyes see.... so camera evidence and film were once perfect for letting all know what is going on (like Calais)  but even that kind of thing can now be distorted by commentary and editing...and that behaviour should be regulated and frowned upon..manipulating for public opinion is a disgrace

 I have heard the year 2030 used in the media so much for when everything is going to be alright (everything ) I assume the leaks from above on this one is a 15 more years plan. I hope not (there are millions in need) and I hope more people join together to get to the truth of the whole matter and what/who caused it and why .

[start-the-fire]

All i have read is that immigrant birthrate is traditionally higher than ours, i think most people would take this as fact-

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/parents--country-of-birth--england-and-wales/2013/stb-births-by-...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/519870/Migrant-baby-boom-UK-high-birthrate

slightly older  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1556901.stm

But i think you would agree that traditionally asian and african families would normally have more children.

I agree Many immigrant's have fitted well in our society, and have made a sound contribution, and only time will tell how integrated we become.

But likewise i have almost first hand experience where things have not from my stepfather, who would not be out of place standing next to jeremy corbyne such are his views.

I just think we have to be cautious how the uk proceeds and learns from its mistakes from the past.

Heybrook primary has 520 pupils all of which are Asian is that good or bad?

And if true this is totally unacceptable

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hospital-apologises-after-moving-raf-6518237

[upthecreekyetagain]

There certainly seems to be evidence that immigrants do have a higher birth rate than the British born community - it would be very strange if they didn't as the vast majority are of child bearing age whereas there is a far wider spread of ages in the UK born population, from young to old.

The evidence that the first generation with immigrant parents have a higher birth rate is far more tenuous and even more so for second, third and fourth generations.

A school with 520 pupils who are all of Asian ethnicity - you ask is that good or bad - why is it either? - does a child's nationality determine the quality of a school? - well for some maybe it does!

"A member of the armed forces in uniform attended our A&E and was asked by a member of staff if he wanted to sit inside the department rather than the waiting room,"

Non-story blown up into a scandal that isn't real.

[astrologica]

It's gone very quiet on this subject. Have the migrants stopped coming to Europe? Was it all a Dream? I don't think so....another seventeen people drowned on the weekend. Five women and five children. None of them from Syria. But no mention of it on the news on TV, just a report on the BBC website. It seems like the government would just like the whole thing to go away. Same with the Jungle camp at Calais...is that still there?😧

[right-then-petal]

Hello Astro, I Think The Media Has Moved On

Cameron,s Stopped The Bank Accounts Of 4 I S People And He,s Now Sending British Foot Soldier,s To Somalia

[tommy.irene]

www.express.co.uk/news/world/608457/Germany-migrants-religious-clashes German police forced to use tear gas as riot breaks out at refugee camp over food http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33999801

[joamur_gosof]

I am with the guy who says no excuse for tearing the book up and throwing it down the toilet...yet still that isnt a reason to try and hang him and less to throw stuff at the countries police... when/where  do christians lynch someone for ripping up a bible in todays world.? ..its all a bit too serious this religion nonsense with some world folk...you would think they would just be happy to not live in fear anymore and just have him arrested if it wasn't his book.

[Anonymous]

This is just an observation and not in reply to anyone.

I was visiting in the Hospital the other day and the whole foyer was taken over by Romanian gypsies. There must have been about at least 18 of them ranging from babies to older people. They were all together. They had been there since 10 in the morning and didn't leave till after visiting hours. They had taken up every chair and table, including the ones in the coffee corner. No one else could find a seat.

We spoke to some staff and nurses who were pulling their hair out as this had been going on for days.

The toilets were a mess, the whole foyer was full of rubbish left for others to clean up. They were loud and disruptive. They had parked two cars all day long in the disability bays in front of the hospital entrance and none were disabled. There was no card in their cars to say they were either.

No one dare to shift them, but a night nurse got a parking fine at A&E as she had an emergency and went over the time of her parking ticket.

All the foreigners stay often in large groups with family members in the hospital. They ignore the visiting hours. No one dares to say a word to them in case they pull the race card, while English people are being told not to have more than 2 visitors at any time and will be told to leave as soon as the visiting hours are over.

To me that is all very wrong.

I have nothing against foreigners coming here. In principle I'm one myself. But I think this kind of thing breeds hatred. It's not about race. It's about respect for the laws of a country that gives you the opportunity for a better life. We have to abide by them, why not them.......................

[merehazle]

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@fallen-archie wrote:

We pay politicians to act on our behalf, throughout Europe and the rest of the developed world the plight of those fleeing war, famine, religious persecution etc is being ignored. Surely it is not beyond the realms of sensibility for us to expect, even demand a collective humane response by the international community to agree action in those countries where terrorists reign. Allowing and encouraging the victims to flee is wrong, they deserve and should be given the right to live peacefully where they were born and like the rest of us have the freedom to travel abroad and see other cultures. The Russians and Chinese stand by and watch while quietly selling weapons to these terrorists. The west interfered yet never considered the impact they would have. It is time the UN grew up and did what it was formed to do.

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'To act on our behalf' ?  To act on their behalf IMO.

Why is it considered a ''good thing'' to have immigrants from EU countries? Is it because nearly all of them come from nations that have cultures fashioned at sometime in the last century, or for some even in the last half century, by fascist / feudal governments and/or forces of occupation and that they will therefore find the increasing totalitarianism of the EU and it's poodles in Westminster more acceptable, far more than the obstreperous native Brits who with their history have an annoying habit of loving freedom from oppression and so, in time, as the proportions of newcomers rise, the population and it's culture will be so much more amenable to the dictatorial feudal fourth European/Frankish empire envisaged by our masters? Was that also perhaps why, unlike France and others, we had to sever our links with kith and kin overseas as a prerequisite to joining  the EEC/EU?

'An observation' at message 192.   I have had similar observations too.

[fallen-archie]

In response to Harry, I completely agree, they should have their cars impounded and they should be made to observe hospital rules, nothing racist just the law of the land.

[malacandran]

Doesn't it seem depressing that posters have to keep on saying, and assuring everyone, that they're not racist.  Because being a racist is absolutely taboo. It gets you banned .

Like in the old Soviet Union, when you couldn't question Marxism-Leninism, or you'd get sent to the Gulag?

[bookhunter2007]

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@malacandran wrote:

Doesn't it seem depressing that posters have to keep on saying, and assuring everyone, that they're not racist.

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When was the last time you actually heard someone admit they were?

It's terrible that people who spread apocryphal tales designed to stir up resentment towards Muslims/Gypsies/*insert other folk devil here* should be considered "racist"?

[malacandran]

Well I just want to confirm that I am not, and never have been, a "racist"

Phew, I hope that's OK with the Police

[start-the-fire]

We'll be watching dont worry.

oops have to confess i did tell an english/scotish joke last week.

One of the daily mails better articles-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2996235/At-man-dares-tell-truth-race-Ex-race-tsar-says-silen...

[fallen-archie]

For what it is worth I agreed with the sentiment expressed in the Hospital story, I would have responded the same regardless of race or creed. The behaviour as described is unacceptable!

[evoman3957]

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

by Robert Frost