OK, in or out?

[cee-dee]

How about an RT poll?

No reasons, no argument, no debate just a straightforward IN or OUT.

Me? OUT.

[upthecreekyetagain]

A far better analogy is that you have a house and someone being chased by a mob intent on killing them bangs on your door begging to be allowed in.

[evoman3957]

I was well aware of the Poem, I merely adapted it somewhat; to suit the circumstances at hand. People know exactly what actions to take and what strings ( heart strings ) to pull, to get what they want. As hard and as unpalatable, as it may be, to do what needs to be done; those that melt under the pressure, to do what needs to be done, threaten the survival of us all. The Man who thinks with his Stomach, forgets his Brain..........The Man who thinks with his Brain, forgets his Heart........but the Man who thinks with his Heart forgets EVERYTHING ELSE.

[artful_dodgings]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

A far better analogy is that you have a house and someone being chased by a mob intent on killing them bangs on your door begging to be allowed in.

---

They're not banging on the UK door though are they ? They're barging in uninvited.

Two questions I'd like the news reporters to ask the Calais migrants when they're interviewing them. One is: When you get to the UK, where are you going to live ? and two: How are you going to live ?

Be interesting to hear their responses.

[upthecreekyetagain]

If we do vote to leave the EU the reporters won't have so far to go to ask the question - the camps will be in Dover rather than Calais!

[mikes*corvettes]

With respect Upthecreek but just occasionally you should leave the leafy suburbs of deepest Surrey take off your rose tinted glasses and visit some of our major cities and see what the rest of us have to put up with on a daily basis from some of these recent migrants.

You keep going on about these poor migrants needing shelter from their war ravaged countries but I find it odd that the father of the boy who drowned back in September who was so determined to get his family first to Canada and when that failed secondly to the UK.

Is now happily living in Iraq.

If he had done that in the first place his son would still be alive, so excuse me if some of us don't share the same blinkered outlook on migrants as you do.

[mikes*corvettes]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

If we do vote to leave the EU the reporters won't have so far to go to ask the question - the camps will be in Dover rather than Calais!

---

Simple remedy for that is to put a ton of dynamite in the middle of the Channel Tunnel and detonate it, then we can go back too when the only way in or out was by air or sea and we had control over our boarders.

It's rather telling in my eyes that the main anti exit lobby are the same ones who were scaremongering us that if we didn't join the euro we were doomed and look how that turned out.

[cee-dee]

Ah-ha, but they've already passed thousands of safe houses but they're hell-bent on yours because not only have you got a lovely garden but you've got a lovely house too and furthermore, they've got their eyes on your four-legged dinners wandering around.......

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@mikes*corvettes wrote:

With respect Upthecreek but just occasionally you should leave the leafy suburbs of deepest Surrey take off your rose tinted glasses and visit some of our major cities and see what the rest of us have to put up with on a daily basis from some of these recent migrants.

You keep going on about these poor migrants needing shelter from their war ravaged countries but I find it odd that the father of the boy who drowned back in September who was so determined to get his family first to Canada and when that failed secondly to the UK.

Is now happily living in Iraq.

If he had done that in the first place his son would still be alive, so excuse me if some of us don't share the same blinkered outlook on migrants as you do.

---

I may live in "leafy Surrey" but also in one of the areas with the highest proportion of members of ethnic minorities.  As for visiting some of our major cities I would surmise that I do so far more than most - I live just 30 minutes from the very centre of London, was in Bristol last week, Birmingham on Monday, Preston, Bolton and Manchester a couple of weeks ago.  It is amazing to see just how much as a country we do have and how the vast majority of millions of people live, work and play in harmony with each other.

I do keep 'going on' about the poor refugees because that is exactly what they are.  I wish some of those who do keep 'going on' about how immigrants are to blame for all their woes would take off their blindfolds and appreciate just how much they have got.  90% of both the 'in' and 'out' campaigns concentrate on what we will lose if we don't follow their particular choice - rather than what we have and will gain by doing so.   We are incredibly lucky in this country, and will remain so however the referendum is decided, and both as a country and as individuals behave on many occasions like the rich man in his castle.

Sit back when you have time and imagine your city, town or village under siege.  Authorities such as police, army, councils etc no longer in existence - water cut off, shops empty, no food in the larder - what would you do for yourself and your family.  It has been suggested that those in this situation should 'fight for their country' rather than try to protect their family!

Syria was a rich country with towns and cities every bit as sophisticated as those found in the UK with populations equally educated and skilled but when it comes down to basic survival lacking in many of the necessary skills, just as we would be in their situation.

Now imagine that as well as your home town and the rest of the UK no longer habitable the whole of Europe was being similarly ravaged but you were given the hope for you and your family to escape to the US, Canada or Australia - tell me that your principles would stop you from doing so and you would go to France instead because the US was keeping the 'bad guys at bay' by bombing them.

So you survive the journey to the US but when you arrive instead of receiving the assistance you expected you are held in a camp with tens of thousands of others, hardly any sanitary facilities, insufficient food and water and no health facilities for months on end - you'd sit down, (on the cold and dirty ground), and think how lucky you were.  You wouldn't be tring to get out - of course you wouldn't!

[goldenwonders]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

---

I may live in "leafy Surrey" but also in one of the areas with the highest proportion of members of ethnic minorities.  As for visiting some of our major cities I would surmise that I do so far more than most - I live just 30 minutes from the very centre of London, was in Bristol last week, Birmingham on Monday, Preston, Bolton and Manchester a couple of weeks ago.  It is amazing to see just how much as a country we do have and how the vast majority of millions of people live, work and play in harmony with each other.

I do keep 'going on' about the poor refugees because that is exactly what they are.  I wish some of those who do keep 'going on' about how immigrants are to blame for all their woes would take off their blindfolds and appreciate just how much they have got.  90% of both the 'in' and 'out' campaigns concentrate on what we will lose if we don't follow their particular choice - rather than what we have and will gain by doing so.   We are incredibly lucky in this country, and will remain so however the referendum is decided, and both as a country and as individuals behave on many occasions like the rich man in his castle.

Sit back when you have time and imagine your city, town or village under siege.  Authorities such as police, army, councils etc no longer in existence - water cut off, shops empty, no food in the larder - what would you do for yourself and your family.  It has been suggested that those in this situation should 'fight for their country' rather than try to protect their family!

Syria was a rich country with towns and cities every bit as sophisticated as those found in the UK with populations equally educated and skilled but when it comes down to basic survival lacking in many of the necessary skills, just as we would be in their situation.

Now imagine that as well as your home town and the rest of the UK no longer habitable the whole of Europe was being similarly ravaged but you were given the hope for you and your family to escape to the US, Canada or Australia - tell me that your principles would stop you from doing so and you would go to France instead because the US was keeping the 'bad guys at bay' by bombing them.

So you survive the journey to the US but when you arrive instead of receiving the assistance you expected you are held in a camp with tens of thousands of others, hardly any sanitary facilities, insufficient food and water and no health facilities for months on end - you'd sit down, (on the cold and dirty ground), and think how lucky you were.  You wouldn't be tring to get out - of course you wouldn't!

---

Creeky, you clearly are a well meaning person, well travelled and well read. You point out that these migrants are desperate and escaping a war torn, ravaged once wealthy nation so that they can protect their families - which I don't dispute!

However can you explain to me

1. Why is it that such a large number of them seem to have lost their families along the way and its only the men who have arrived??? I'm not sure how that 'protects' their families - I know if it were me the last thing I'd do is leave my wife and children along the way and meet up with them later!

2. Why is it they choose to travel the length of Europe and choose the UK as their final destination when they supposedly were safe the minute they entered Europe?

[upthecreekyetagain]

There are many families amongst the refugees but if you look at the population of the UK, for example, a very large proportion of young men between 16 and 30 are not in a permanent relationship, and this is a country where cohabiting out of wedlock is not frowned upon.  There are an equal number of 'unattached' women.

So if we accept that there are three basic groups, families, single men and single women in a crisis situation such as there is in Syria which of those groups are most likely to be able to undergo the rigours of long distance travel and which are likely to end up in so called safe havens such as have been set up in the Lebanon and Jordan.

Of course young single men are likely to be the most numerous amongst those reaching the shores of Europe.

[upthecreekyetagain]

With regards to why some, and not the vast majority, want to come to the UK, there can be many reasons.  Many speak English, have visited the UK on previous occasions, have family here, see the job prospects as good, see their best chance of a bright future being in the UK.

Once the decision to flee has been made and acted on then other factors come into play other than just survival - yes placed in a camp in Greece or Turkey the likelihood is that they won't die but just staying alive is not something any of us want.

[goldenwonders]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

There are many families amongst the refugees but if you look at the population of the UK, for example, a very large proportion of young men between 16 and 30 are not in a permanent relationship, and this is a country where cohabiting out of wedlock is not frowned upon.  There are an equal number of 'unattached' women.

So if we accept that there are three basic groups, families, single men and single women in a crisis situation such as there is in Syria which of those groups are most likely to be able to undergo the rigours of long distance travel and which are likely to end up in so called safe havens such as have been set up in the Lebanon and Jordan.

Of course young single men are likely to be the most numerous amongst those reaching the shores of Europe.

---

Creeky you seem to be in denial, - over 60% of those in the Calais jungle were men and their average age was 33. It was also a place that was described as being unsafe for women - possibly you could say that's why there were less women there! However if they are not there, where are they???

If as is often suggested these migrants are 'qualified and should be allowed in' then why do they not make the normal application for a visa to work here??? Why do they refuse to register in France and apply to come and work in the UK?

However they seem to prefer attacking lorry drivers and smuggling themselves in to work illegally which is a real benefit to our country!

[evoman3957]

The one point I will concede on is that if, just for once, we ( UK ) could stop *$%@*** up other peoples countries and mind our own business; things might improve. That's not to say that other people don't do just as good a job *$%@*** up their own countries, but at least they've got nobody else to blame. The USA.....well.....they've got 2 nice big fat Oceans between them and all the trouble they cause, that's why it took them so long to get involved in WW2 and why 9 / 11 was such a big shock.

I remember being told that we were getting involved in north Africa & middle east, because destabilised countries; would be a threat to our own security.........well they're not destabilised a lot AT ALL now are they

These same people are now telling me that leaving the EU would not be a good idea. Why is it that I get the impression, that if I did exactly opposite to what they say; I couldn't go far wrong. It's like somebody telling you a particular Brain Surgeon is the best in the business and then, when you walk into the operating theatre, you find him looking up somebody's backside trying to locate their Brain...........doesn't instill a lot of confidence.....does it !!

[goldenwonders]

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@evoman3957 wrote:

I remember being told that we were getting involved in north Africa & middle east, because destabilised countries; would be a threat to our own security.........well they're not destabilised a lot AT ALL now are they?

...and I seem to remember being told by Tony B. Liar we had to go into Iraq as Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, I knew it was carp at the time!

Tony B Liar is now saying it would be a disaster to leave the EU? Wonder if he's telling the truth this time?????

[evoman3957]

makes the old saying even more relevant:

Fool me once.......shame on you

Fool me twice.......shame on ME

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@goldenwonders wrote:

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

There are many families amongst the refugees but if you look at the population of the UK, for example, a very large proportion of young men between 16 and 30 are not in a permanent relationship, and this is a country where cohabiting out of wedlock is not frowned upon.  There are an equal number of 'unattached' women.

So if we accept that there are three basic groups, families, single men and single women in a crisis situation such as there is in Syria which of those groups are most likely to be able to undergo the rigours of long distance travel and which are likely to end up in so called safe havens such as have been set up in the Lebanon and Jordan.

Of course young single men are likely to be the most numerous amongst those reaching the shores of Europe.

---

Creeky you seem to be in denial, - over 60% of those in the Calais jungle were men and their average age was 33. It was also a place that was described as being unsafe for women - possibly you could say that's why there were less women there! However if they are not there, where are they???

If as is often suggested these migrants are 'qualified and should be allowed in' then why do they not make the normal application for a visa to work here??? Why do they refuse to register in France and apply to come and work in the UK?

However they seem to prefer attacking lorry drivers and smuggling themselves in to work illegally which is a real benefit to our country!

---

You've now stepped from the general question of refugees entering the EU to the specific question regarding the camps in Calais.

Nevertheless take a look at the figures you quote - the average age of the men was 33 - 40% were women or children - so if we take at least 25% of the men as family members connected to that 40% of women and children that leaves 35% as single men - now if you were to tell me that the average age of that 35% was 33 then I'd concede your point however it is likely to be much lower as is the average age of those with families likely to be higher.   In any case the proportion of 35% single unattached males is what you would expect in a migrant population whatever their age.

What I do agree with though is that not all those in the Calais camps come from Syria or have necessarily been driven from their homes by civil unrest and war.  Many are economic migrants wanting to do nothing more than either you or I, to better their lives by moving to an area with greater prospects.  Similar to the millions that have over the last few decades move to the South East from other areas of the U.K.

[bookhunter2007]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

---

You've now stepped from the general question of refugees entering the EU to the specific question regarding the camps in Calais.

---

This is RT Creeky.

Any "debate" regarding the UK's membership of the EU was never really going to be much of a diversion away from the angry mob spouting off their usual tabloidesque soundbites about "immergrints 'n' benifits".

Most of the poor dears have probably never even heard of things like TTIP.

[evoman3957]

TTIP.........even more of a reason to get out, before we're dragged even deeper into the quicksand; by a faceless enemy of true freedom and democracy.  Immigration, is just one of many aspects; on which membership of the EU does us no favours.....others, like the TTIP you quoted, are just as important and even more insidious. A couple of days back, the government rejected calls to widen the age range for immunization against meningitis; despite a petition of nearly 1 million calling for such a policy.  Jeremy Hunt was quoted as saying the the resource / budget for the NHS was " Finite ".  That's fine, as long as the demand / drain on the NHS also remains finite; but with uncontrolled immigration, as well as other reasons for population increase, that's not going to happen........is it !!

[mikes*corvettes]

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@bookhunter2007 wrote:

Any "debate" regarding the UK's membership of the EU was never really going to be much of a diversion away from the angry mob spouting off their usual tabloidesque soundbites about "immergrints 'n' benifits".

---

 Except some of us are sons of real economic migrants that came here in the 50's, when in those days if you didn't work you didn't eat and you didn't have the reliance of the nanny state to fall back on.

Remember those good old days when the often referred to sign in the window which read "Room to let,No blacks,No dogs and no Irish" was a fact and a way of life.

So please excuse me if I don't share your point of view, I'll repeat what I said earlier when I voted in it was bacause I was told it was just a glorified Rotary Club not an open border policy.

[astrologica]

Can you refer us to one post on here where a poster has written 'immergrints 'n' benefits ' instead of immigrants and benefits?  Your sense of superiority knows no bounds.....white breathtaking really.