Ken Livingstone.

[merehazle]

Well...as no one has started a thread on Ken Livingstone's comment. I thought I would. Well these 7/7 bombers killed 52 innocent people. These innocent people killed no one. Hundreds of thousands UK anti - war protesters took to the streets on the 16 Feb 2003. Blame the leaders, not innocent people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[joe_bloggs*]

But as i said if they continue to recieve weapons and finance from our supposed allies they can never be defeated,they'll just pop up elesewhere with new shiny weapons

[fallen-archie]

You sometimes have to compromise to make progress but certainly it would be sensible to cut off their Oil revenues, then to close off their cyber network, turn it around and expose them for what they are, empower women as the Kurds have done, Force Sunni and Shia to the table and so on.

[evoman3957]

Once again, that's down to this tribal mentality; Saudi being mainly Suni ( ruling family particularly ) and Iran being Shia. These people were NEVER ready for democracy and the west shouldn't have touted it as the panacea that they did.  Being so divided and tribal as they are, they were way behind on the social evolutionary scale. The iron fisted rulers they had, kept cohesion in Countries where, given half the chance, one half would have killed the other half.  That's why the Chinese Government is so desperately trying to continue running the Country they way they have been and the Human rights issues are a penalty worth paying for peace and cohesion. Can you imagine what would happen, if a country with almost a quarter of the Worlds population; got democracy......total freedom for EVERY village to vote for what they want and expect it to be delivered...............God I hope the West don't get their way there. The truth is, that it wasn't about these Countries; because as long as the iron fisted rulers were the ones WE wanted, that was alright........it was the ones we didn't want that we felt should be introduced to democracy.  So we let loose " The Dogs of War ".........opened " Pandora's Box ".  Why is it that mankind is so blind to the fact that not all mistakes can be put right and one day one of those mistakes will ultimately end it ALL..........unless nature does it first.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Can anyone point out any conflict or war which was ended by "talking" before great loss of life?

---

The Suez conflict ???

[mikes*corvettes]

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

---

@cee-dee wrote:

Can anyone point out any conflict or war which was ended by "talking" before great loss of life?

---

The Suez conflict ???

---

Add to that the Cuban missile crisis.

[cee-dee]

As the conflict was over the Suez area and the canal rather than a country although the other idea was to remove Nasser, there were still several thousand killed and injured so talking before the event didn't stop it.

The canal was blocked by Egypt which foiled the whole idea and it was the UN which more or less forced the invaders to withdraw.

[fallen-archie]

The Cuban crisis is an interesting example. What was it that actually prevented the Soviets and the US from going to war? What if the missiles had been the property of a militant terror group?

[cee-dee]

It was the discovery by the US, the blockade and threat by Kennedy rather than talking which forced the Russians to withdraw.

[mikes*corvettes]

It was the Americans agreeing to remove their missiles from Turkey and Italy which put the Russians nose out of joint in the first place which averted more bloodshed.

[suzieseaside]

They had something to bargain with.  US not to invade Cuba in return for removal of Soviet missiles, plus US removal of their missiles in Turkey.  Not to mention the threat of nuclear war if one or other side lost their cool, and both sides wanting to avoid that.

God help us if a group like IS with such a warped ideology get hold of nuclear weapons.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

As the conflict was over the Suez area and the canal rather than a country although the other idea was to remove Nasser, there were still several thousand killed and injured so talking before the event didn't stop it.

The canal was blocked by Egypt which foiled the whole idea and it was the UN which more or less forced the invaders to withdraw.

---

British casualties - 22 dead, 96 wounded

French - 10 dead, 33 wounded

Israeli - 231 dead, 899 wounded

The aims of the UK, France and Israel had been achieved, the Suez Canal was under their control - it was diplomatic manoeuvring, (talks between USA, USSR),  that led to the UN making two resolutions calling for the withdrawal of troops, both were defeated thanks to the veto from France and the UK.

The British public were also against the 'invasion' towards the end of 1956 but ultimately it was the financial and political pressure from the US which resulted in first the UK commencing a ceasefire and ultimately the withdrawal form Egypt.

In other words it was talk, talk, threats, talk, talk that led to the end of the war and ultimately prevented an all out Israeli, Arab conflict that would have drawn in both the USA and USSR and saved thousands of lives.

[cee-dee]

You missed out the Egyptian casualties and the casualty list is open to question anyway.

[merehazle]

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@tommy.irene wrote:
This has been posted on another earlier thread:on afourm that i belong too.. Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East? We support the Iraqi government in the fight againstISIS. Wedon’t likeISIS, butISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like. Wedon’t like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, butISIS is also fighting against him. Wedon’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight againstISIS. So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are now our friends, and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose, but wedon’t want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win. If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less. And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out. It's quite simple, really. Do you understand now?

---

And joking apart this hasn't:

On 26 September 1983, the nuclear early warning system of the Soviet Union twice reported the launch of American Minuteman intercontinental ballistic missiles from bases in the United States. These missile attack warnings were correctly identified as a false alarm by Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov, an officer of the Soviet Aid Defence Forces. This decision is seen as having prevented a retaliatory nuclear attack based on erroneous data on the United States and it's NATO allies, which would have likely resulted in a nuclear war and the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. Investigation of the satellite warning system later confirmed that the system had malfunctioned. 

Evo's post at 23: 'Why is it that mankind is so blind to the fact that not all mistakes can be put right and one day one of those mistakes will unltmately end it All.......unless nature does it first'  My reply is partly due to your comment too.  Thank you.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

You missed out the Egyptian casualties and the casualty list is open to question anyway.

---

I quoted the casualties suffered by the attacking forces that withdrew following diplomatic pressure.

[evoman3957]

Wouldn't one have though that by now, the Human Race has presided over so many Wars and Screw Ups; of every different permutation available, that they could have printed a universal reference book.......a sort of "Super" link for those linky types. Every time we embarked on another War, or Screw Up, out could come the old ref. book / link with all the information it in ie. How did you get into this mess ? Outcomes available ? How much the particular Screw Up is going to cost ( Money and Lives ) ? Races of people involved & various outcomes given that fact ? etc. etc. A sort of "Idiots" guide to managing Screw Ups / Life.........MMMmmm why didn't I think of that sooner. I could bring out a new updated volume every year, with additions etc. it would keep me, my Children, Grandchildren in work forever.......because nobody would ever refer to it prior to Screwing Up.......it would ALWAYS be after the event.

I could do a version just for Teenagers..........God !! that would be huge !

[fallen-archie]

Did anyone see George Galloway on the Sunday Politics? I am not a fan, many of his actions and words have been lamentable, so when he popped up i was prepared for more of the same, But no he actually supported Russian Bombing and he said he would support the UK if it worked with others including Russia, He attacked our turning a blind eye to Turkish involvement with Isis buying oil from them, he opposed Saudi funding terror and supported the west applying pressure to bring Iran and Saudi Arabia to the negociating table.

If Livingston and Corbyn were realists they too would grasp the nettle and show they have answers and are not just playing politics.

Cameron has shifted a little on the question of Assad, a little more could see effective action for once with broad international support.

[merehazle]

---

@evoman3957 wrote:

Wouldn't one have though that by now, the Human Race has presided over so many Wars and Screw Ups; of every different permutation available, that they could have printed a universal reference book.......a sort of "Super" link for those linky types. Every time we embarked on another War, or Screw Up, out could come the old ref. book / link with all the information it in ie. How did you get into this mess ? Outcomes available ? How much the particular Screw Up is going to cost ( Money and Lives ) ? Races of people involved & various outcomes given that fact ? etc. etc. A sort of "Idiots" guide to managing Screw Ups / Life.........MMMmmm why didn't I think of that sooner. I could bring out a new updated volume every year, with additions etc. it would keep me, my Children, Grandchildren in work forever.......because nobody would ever refer to it prior to Screwing Up.......it would ALWAYS be after the event.

I could do a version just for Teenagers..........God !! that would be huge !

---

If only?

Most  countries do not indulge in warfare. It is a matter of concern and distress to many people in the world that a significant handful of country's, often in defiance of the United Nations, are almost constantly at war, either overtly, or through the support of and provocation of others.

In the human psyche

it is a fatal flaw,

a perversion of the human mind,

using our greatest brains to create

outrageous threats to all mankind.

War is

the profoundest disrespect

for the sanctity

of human life,

the ultimate in racism,

the collapse of morality

War is

the ultimate in criminality

the ultimate obscenity,

the ultimate crime against humanity.

So shall we honour war?

and should we now praise troubled men?

Or shall we remember what war is

and give true meaning

to ''Never again'' ?

Well I have forgot who wrote that. It certainly wasn't Blair or Bush.  When you have time Google these words: 'Robin Cooks Resignation Speech' and he was actually given a standing ovation (unheard of before in the house). Yet they still had their BLOODY war. See how the late Robin almost collapsed in tears at the end. Haven't learnt anything have they?

[joe_bloggs*]

a very interesting if frightening account of the Cuban missile crisis:

http://thebulletin.org/okinawa-missiles-october8826