It's been a while :-)

[**bustysinclaire**]

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-jan-feb/bible-guidance-relevant/

A topic that is being offered for discussion this month. Some may find it interesting xxx

[**bustysinclaire**]

The storylines of the daughters etc of A & E give rise to them all being in continuing incestuous relationships then? Any offspring would be liable to have some defects?

I can answer that if you would like me to xx

You can't refute the arguments put forward which is the reason for the "mocking tone" which is a counter to the smug "We know" tone of those superior beings putting forward their beliefs.

Would it be a waste of time?

Apart from saying "God created it" explain how the Moon was formed? Refute any of the scientific "theories" for it's formation and in particular the formation of the Moon being by some matter being split off from a collision between another planet and Earth. If that collision took place, it took place billions of years ago.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/#en/mediaitems/AllVideos/pub-ivwc_1_VIDEO

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

wrote:

Thanks busty.

 I wonder if you could answer a question for me, sorry it's off topic.

Every Thursday evening I see our local Kingdom Hall is having some sort of congregation, can you tell me if this is a mass, holy day, meeting or whatever, I don't mean that to sound offensive, I don't know what it's called , I just wondered the significance of that day.

---

lol marge, don't be sorry I was getting a bit sarcy with CD lol xxx

Every Thursday is Our ministry school where we learn how to be better at (for want of better words) preachers, teachers, question answerers etc for when we go house to house, or any mode of reaching out to others.

Plus a book study where one of the JW publications is studied in depth using the bible to back up what we learn viam the scriptures, for example we are learning about Jesus life and ministry at the moment.

[cee-dee]

It's too late tonight to watch a half-hour video but......... the Moon.

There are several ways the Moon could have been formed but all things considered, the most likely is that the Earth was struck by another Planet-sized object during the early times of this Solar system's formation. It's clear that there have been many collisions between objects and the remaining Planets and Moons. The evidence is there to see. We saw Jupiter being struck, all the Planets have been so struck over time.

At present, the Earth is revolving around the Sun at roughly 65,000 miles an hour and the speed of rotation of the Earth is around 1,000 miles an hour. The diameter of the Earth is now about 8,000 miles.

If the early Earth was only half the present size and "met" another object of similar size at similar speed both objects would be largely  "melted" by the sheer force of impact and it's likely a lot of debris would be ejected. Gravity would ensure a lot of it would fall back to the largest mass.

If a large mass was ejected, it also would attract debris by it's own gravity depending on its density. Some large pieces would be likely to be thrown so far out that the gravity of the large mass couldn't "hold" or attract it and they would be thrown out in to space.

If quite a large mass was ejected by the collision and it hadn't got enough "speed" to leave the gravitational pull of the Earth it would either eventually be pulled back to Earth or if it was at an in-beteen speed between fast enough to get away from the Earth but not having enough speed to make it but juuuuust enough not to be pulled back, it would go in to orbit around the Earth. As our Moon.

Now, objects in space above around 250 miles in diameter form in to a sphere. The Moon is over 2,000 miles in diameter hence it's a sphere.

The molten Earth and the molten Moon both formed spheres. It seems that parts of the Moon have a different composition. Some have the same constituents as the Earth, some is different leading some to say that part's some of the debris from the object that hit the Earth. Some say the Earth Was "knocked" in to our present position between Venus and Mars and that really, we should be "further out"..... We're now "The Third Rock from the Sun".

Now I suppose you'll say God caused those happenings but how does that equate with your "bible teachings" estimate of the age of the Earth since creation? Ah-ha, so it was only Eden that was "created" on Earth in your time-scale?

Remember, the Universe was formed long before this Solar system of which we are part. There are many, many other Solar systems "out there" and there have been many which have been and "gone".

Much of the Universe is comprised of the re-constituted debris of stars that have been and "gone." We are Stardust.

[**bustysinclaire**]

There are several ways the Moon could have been formed but all things considered, the most likely ??????? is that the Earth was struck by another Planet-sized object during the early times of this Solar system's formation. It's clear that there have been many collisions between objects and the remaining Planets and Moons. The evidence is there to see. We saw Jupiter being struck, all the Planets have been so struck over time.

At present, the Earth is revolving around the Sun at roughly 65,000 miles an hour and the speed of rotation of the Earth is around 1,000 miles an hour. The diameter of the Earth is now about 8,000 miles.

If the early Earth was only half the present size and "met" another object of similar size at similar speed both objects would be largely  "melted" by the sheer force of impact and it's likely a lot of debris would be ejected. Gravity would ensure a lot of it would fall back to the largest mass.

If a large mass was ejected, it also would attract debris by it's own gravity depending on its density. Some large pieces would be likely to be thrown so far out that the gravity of the large mass couldn't "hold" or attract it and they would be thrown out in to space.

If quite a large mass was ejected by the collision and it hadn't got enough "speed" to leave the gravitational pull of the Earth it would either eventually be pulled back to Earth or if it was at an in-beteen speed between fast enough to get away from the Earth but not having enough speed to make it but juuuuust enough not to be pulled back, it would go in to orbit around the Earth. As our Moon.

Now, objects in space above around 250 miles in diameter form in to a sphere. The Moon is over 2,000 miles in diameter hence it's a sphere.

The molten Earth and the molten Moon both formed spheres. It seems that parts of the Moon have a different composition. Some have the same constituents as the Earth, some is different leading some to say that part's some of the debris from the object that hit the Earth. Some say the Earth Was "knocked" in to our present position between Venus and Mars and that really, we should be "further out"..... We're now "The Third Rock from the Sun".

Now I suppose you'll say God caused those happenings but how does that equate with your "bible teachings" estimate of the age of the Earth since creation? Ah-ha, so it was only Eden that was "created" on Earth in your time-scale?

Remember, the Universe was formed long before this Solar system of which we are part. There are many, many other Solar systems "out there" and there have been many which have been and "gone".

CD the bible teaches that God has always existed he has no begining and has/will have no end, that he made the universe long before he chose to inhabit the earth. He has been around for millions of years. So he was busy creating the universe and all in it before he chose to inhabit the earth.

Much of the Universe is comprised of the re-constituted debris of stars that have been and "gone." We are Stardust.

I wouldn't disagree that there is debris, but how can you know of everything in the universe? it just goes on and on. 

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201403/untold-story-of-creation/#?insight[search_id]=8...

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20140801/who-made-god/#?insight[search_id]=8fc5bbf6-a...

I know you don't accept there is a God CD, but what do you think JW's are saying God is, do you understand that we beleive him to be "Almighty" all powerful far superior than anything in existanceicapable of anything. You underestimate him completely.

[**bustysinclaire**]

I think we will have to amicably agree to disagree CD, no amount of my logical explanations will be accepted by you if clearly don't accept there is a God. Xx and likewise because I know and accept there is I am confident that i can have sound explanations for all the questions that are posed xxx

[cee-dee]

But you havn't made an "explanations". You've "explained" nothing.

You say all that has been written is the word of God, it isn't, it's the word of man. All the obscure cults pick and choose what they want to believe and espouse the same stuff ad infinitum. Why aren't you espousing the words of the Torah if you believe what you say you believe?

[cee-dee]

[**bustysinclaire**]

lol CD,

it'll take more than a loveable ol board rogue to make me sulk xx  

[**bustysinclaire**]

Or was you threatening to sulk lol xx  

[cee-dee]

[cee-dee]

You decided to introduce your (unwanted?) beliefs in to another thread off topic. So, as you're not intending to let your beliefs drop I'll continue......

Adam and Eve were not born with sin, (I know you didn't say that) in fact, they were not born at all, they were created. They were offered temptation and resisted, resisted that is until Eve was corrupted and she then went and corrupted Adam.

Note that there we have a man blaming a woman..... It's all Eve's fault. Wasn't Lilith supposed to be Adam's first wife......? Later Eve was created from Adam's rib..... Seems like a bit of "pick-and-choose" what to record?

Now how much of the Bible was written by a woman? Doesn't it all come over as a "Man thing"? It's all male biased. That continues through to the present day to a greater extent in some religions and a lesser extent in others but it's still there. Men were the "educated" ones. Most were illiterate but a few could read and write so I suppose from that point of view it'd be logical to assume that the writers would be men.

Women were (and still are) regarded as inferior to men and the Bible perpetuates it.

How much of the Bible is written in the first person? When you look deep in to it with an open (some might claim sceptical) mind it begins to look like second-hand information written by men biased against women. So God chose Man to speak for him eh? Still looks like a man thing. = Blame women for all the trouble in the world.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Awesome.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/#en/mediaitems/AllVideos/pub-ivwc_2_VIDEO

:https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no2-2016-april/bible-more-than-good-book/ The Bible—Is it Just a Good Book?

[cee-dee]

It's no use continually posting links. You are posting to "us", I am replying to you. Use your own words of your own understanding to reply.

The ancient texts clearly show "pick-and-choose". You mentioned scrolls a while back. There's reference to the book of Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls so how come the book of Enoch is mostly ignored? Enoch was supposed to be "The seventh from Adam" and the great grandfather of Noah.

It seems that the things Enoch had (or was supposed to have) written were a bit disliked so were excluded from Bible writings?

More questions for you to (un)answer?

[**bustysinclaire**]

Enoch was a good man courageous in the faith, God used him to give a very impotant warning.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-no1-2017-january/enoch-walked-with-god/#?ins...

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-stories/1/enoch/#?insight[search_id]=0edf5f06-d082-49...

With respect CD, when I do reply to you the responses given are most of the time "no it isn't or no it doesn't" there is no way to get past that even if there are sound arguments. So I post the links so that if you genuinely want an answer you will be able to find it. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but there is no way of reasoning with that type of closed mind. Many times I  give sound answers but when you constantly get those types of answers for everything it is clear that you are not at all open to any reasoning. So as you said a waste of time.

There on the other hand though maybe some that might want to read an answer that can be easily read and understood, the link is there if they wish to read it, at least it is not just a "because I said so". There are proven facts to be had.

You seem very hostile towards this particular faith. Your choice of course, but life is full of differences we have to learn to live with them, even if we don't agree with them.

As there does't seem to be anymore interest in this topic then maybe it is time to let it drop off the page.

If anyone is interested in answers to anything then I will be happy to answer.

In the meantime if I choose to add my opinion on other threads I'll take up the invatation to do so because it is a public forum. xxx

I do hope I haven't offended anyone, not my intention at all.  

[cee-dee]

You will keep posting those JW links. From what I've read they seem long and rambling and as my Father used to say, "When you've finished you've said nothing".

There are (as with many ancient texts) several versions of "Enoch". However, they're not of great date and as such, how can they fit in with the timescale of the (supposed) creation of everything?

According to Enoch, there are ten Heavens. Eventually Enoch was allowed in to the tenth Heaven where God sits on his throne, then he was sent back to Earth for thirty days then whisked back to tenth Heaven forever.

Some of the "Heavens" so described don't sound much like "Heaven" to me. The second Heaven where bad angels are tortured. The third Heaven, where it's a mixture of Eden and hell, a place where bad men are tortured.....

It's all very far-fetched and not believable except by those who're indoctrinated.

Any idea what the last word is?

[**bustysinclaire**]

I wasn't going to add to this, I was happy to let it drop off the page.  (give CD his last word lol).

Some of the threads where I have been joining in have made me think a bit. Most of the topics, one way or another without the intentions of actually bringing in the faith will get an answer of the type that does lean towards a certain way of religious thinking because that is life. I'm not purposely trying to preach, just joining in with my point of view. It really isn't my fault or problem if it does make some people annoyed or angry, they're the ones with the problem. I do find most posters lovely and polite and very friendly and thank you all.

So I'm going to add a little bit more, if it gives me the last word then woohoo lol  sorry

If it makes anyone else give something then fine and if not fine xxx

What I will say, and it would make it relevant to my op too is, 

Everything in our daily lives is governed by the laws of right and wrong, good or bad, and whether we like it or not or believe it or not, there will always be a question of where they originated from and how these standards, rules etc came about.

How such wonders and beauty of the world and planet we live in affect our lives, how we all choose to live. 

Having to choose between believing in God and not, debating the subjects that arise regarding those choices will happen ever more frequently where ever we are, whatever we are doing.

That is life because God stated all will know that I am Jehovah. 

So just think why this particular faith attracts so much opposition where others don't, Why it is hated so much, compared to others. it is because there has to be the choice of if you are not with god you are against him, and that has consequences. Its a form of arrogance that mankind does not need a God and not prepared to give him his deserved appreciation. So really isn't it the same as back in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve chose by their disobedience to show God they didn't appreciate him. And that Satan who was once a good angel got jealous and wanted what Jehovah had, the power the honour and Authority. 

It is satan that hates Jehovah and is the driving influence behind the oposition now.

So the relevance is..............................the bible is an olive branch. don't get cross with the messengers.

[astrologica]

Hello Busty...I have to say, reading your post, that I am astonished that you describe CeeDee as having a closed mind!  I would say that your mind is far more closed off than his. As you know,from past conversations, I have debated with JWs before, and I find that they, including yourself, are utterly  and absolutely closed off to any sort of honest debate. JWs refuse totally to consider for one second the possibility that there may be no 'God' in existence, and yet they expect atheists to consider the opposite view. I suspect that CeeDee has, like myself, come to his present stance regarding the existence of a 'God', after much life experience, much thought, and maybe some religious research. The main reason why JWs are so unpopular is that they are so dogmatic about their belief system and so intrusive in trying to push it on to other people.And it is just a BELIEF...you can never KNOW that what you believe is the truth. 

[cee-dee]

Very well put. Well said.

I'd say to BS that I wouldn't mind betting (not that I'm a betting man) that over the years I've been in more churches and met more "Men of the Cloth" than she has. OK, so most have been Protestant of one persuasion or another and I've been to some Catholic churches too but I've never set foot near Kingdom Hall or discussed anything with any elders. Also, I've never knowingly met people of any of "the other" beliefs but I have read extensively.

Now what's come through to me is that the thinking is the wealthy are "bad" and the poor people are "good". Also, what's come through to me is that the religions were all about control. Make the masses believe what "they" say under threat if dire retribution "in the end". Also, make them believe that "one day" they'll "go to a better place" where everything is absolutely wonderful.

Some of those "Men of the Cloth" are thoroughy unpleasant people to deal with and I'd go so far as to say, just plain nasty. You couldn't discuss anything with them, if you mention anything that doesn't conforn to what they say and they'll get really unpleasant.

OK, so some are really nice people but see good in everything, they're too nice for their own good.

What experience I have had with JWs is exactly what's been displayed on here. = Won't discuss anything properly, just endlessly spout/quote this, that or the other.

It seems to me that over time they've been indoctrinated completely in to the narrow-minded thinking of the cult so that they're unable to grasp anything else.

That reminds me of how religious beliefs were (still are in some places) rammed home by making young people endlessly recite passages from their "book" and beat the heck out of them when/if they made a mistake or couldn't remember a "verse". In the end, all those unfortunates could do was trot out the same old, same old garbage as they became just another member of the flock to go out indoctrinating more and more of the weak and gullible. In effect, they'd been brainwashed! Same goes for JWs.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Hi people,

Like wise astro, I over the years have studied and researched, and not just this particular faith. I have analized and reasoned on everything I have read and come to conclusions on that basis. So my faith has been built in my opinion on sound reasoning.

I agree with you both some some religious people can be extremely nasty. I try very hard not be, we are certainly not taught that.

CD you do make it very hard to discuss things, I supose it is because we both genuinely believe in what we say and nothing can change our minds because we know different. What I do feel is that I am quite capable and happy to accept you don't agree with me in the slightest and I respect your views. I don't feel that coming from you, you don't appear to afford me the same kind of respect of my own beliefs even if you don't agree with them.

Some of the things you offer about the bible in refute of a certain point I have made,  I know to be completely different (dare I say wrong) and when I try to explain so your anger, contempt and utter dismisal of my views is all that comes across. Maybe I am just reading you all wrong but I really don't think so.  I do think that you tar all religions with the same brush but that is one point JW's do try to put across, that we are different. Our faith is no part of worldy religions.  It is of course very possible that I don't express myself in quite the way I mean sometimes, and if I do ever come across as rude or disrespectful I sincerely apologise.

In the end, all those unfortunates could do was trot out the same old, same old garbage as they became just another member of the flock to go out indoctrinating more and more of the weak and gullible. In effect, they'd been brainwashed! Same goes for JWs.

The above is an example of what I mean by your contempt and disrespect, we don't feel what we believe in to be garbage xx it does hurt when we have tings like that said. you may have those views about it but why don't you respect someone and put it a little bit more tactfully and kindly, civility costs nothing 

We are taught that everyone is equal, rich poor, colour or creed. God is not partial so why should we be, and to say we beat the heck out of our dear fellow brothers and sisters, well you really don't understand the deep love and feeling we have for each other. I would say then that because you do dismiss everything you don't know a JW for who they really are, a kind loving, caring individual who cares deeply for their environment and fellow man and who is thankful and greatly appreciative for the life.

Because we appreciate who was responsible for everything we have and enjoy we give back by working hard in the faith, and obedience, we do it because we want to because we love our God.

CD If you did ever set foot in a kingdom Hall and speak to an elder, I am sure you would eat your words  you would at least be pleasantly surprise. xxx