It's been a while :-)

[**bustysinclaire**]

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-jan-feb/bible-guidance-relevant/

A topic that is being offered for discussion this month. Some may find it interesting xxx

[cee-dee]

I think it would have been better to have actually said what point you were trying to make.

Reading all the writings from down the ages, I would say that most of them were written in such a way that they could be interpreted to fit or suit many happenings. I don't think they're definite, they're ambiguous and will be read and accepted by those who will take them to mean what they want them to mean.

[**bustysinclaire**]

I think it would have been better to have actually said what point you were trying to make.

Actually no CD, I was hopeing to direct ones to read for themselves but not in a rude way.  I am trying to direct them to Jehovah's take on the topics and not my own, but of course it is something I put my own faith in.

It is then the individuals heart condition that determines how they read it and understand what it means. The content is pretty straight forward otherwise.

Take for instance yourself, you have no intention of being swayed by the contents and to change your mind about whether what is being put into words is true, so you will always find someway of describing it negatively and will never give it credit. If though you have read it and decided that it isn't something that you want to take notice of,  then it has done it's job by giving you the choice to believe or not.

We have got to that stage now where it is as clear as that, you either are accepting God or not. There really isn't any inbetween. A bit like in Noah's day.

Others though, may read and come to the opposite conclusion and believe it is something to look into and learn more about, if me, directing them to where Jehovah chooses to put these enlighteing thought provoking articles in someway helps them on the road to "Salvation"  directing them to God Jehovah and Jesus Christ then I feel I would have pleased him.

These days not everyone can be reached at the door or on the streets, here could be just another avenue to use.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" the choice is righfully theirs. xxx

[cee-dee]

I don't think people need "directing".

By now, everyone is aware of what has been written and, like you say, will probably have decided what they think.

What was written may well have good thougts behind it and much has wisdom but....... (you knew there was going to be a but?) when it was written and oft repeated, it was directed at a mostly illiterate (and ignorant) people who were open to explanations about things which could not be proved or explained otherwise.

For instance, thunder and lightning. So a random bolt of lightning just happens to strike some poor bloke out in the middle of some open ground. "It's God's will".... Is it? It just wouldn't happen to be an electrical discharge from a cloud charged with static electricity which discharges to the nearest high object?

[**bustysinclaire**]

 I don't think people need "directing".

By now, everyone is aware of what has been written and, like you say, will probably have decided what they think.

The fact that the preaching work is still going is is because not everyone is aware, God and Jesus direct the work at it will cease when everyone has been reach with Gods word. Only God and Jesus are able to know that everyone is aware. and actually when there is no more preaching and going from door to door, that will be another sign that Gods Day is approaching., another fullment so very relevant for today. 

What was written may well have good thougts behind it and much has wisdom but....... (you knew there was going to be a but?) when it was written and oft repeated, it was directed at a mostly illiterate (and ignorant) people who were open to explanations about things which could not be proved or explained otherwise.

Again relevant for today  as it will be reaching reaching everyone not just the illiterate, and back when it was written just because someone couldn't read or write didn't mean they were'nt intelligent. It just meant they needed a simpler mode of teaching and that is where Jesus came in to teach the people of all races, levels of intellegence etc. God is not parcial.

For instance, thunder and lightning. So a random bolt of lightning just happens to strike some poor bloke out in the middle of some open ground. "It's God's will".... Is it? It just wouldn't happen to be an electrical discharge from a cloud charged with static electricity which discharges to the nearest high object?

Well of course I would argue that the random bolt of lighting was the result of when certain elements that God was the creator of came together. Not that it was Gods will it should happen there and then (it is down to atmospherics) and certainly not to randomly hit a stray human being or their house and render them incompacitated or homeless. Many things in nature have gone haywire because of the times we are living in and the rectlessness of mankind. You can't blame that on God. Again I would argue the Bible is very relevant today because it answers so many questions of how why and who and gives very logical and meaningful solutions.

[cee-dee]

Not only do people not need directing, they don't need "teaching" the ramblings of some minor, inward-looking and restrictive cult.

The bible interpretations and predictions are not logical, most are completely illogical.

The people of long ago, ie BCE were ignorant, they were ignorant of the real reasons for natural happenings. I didn't say they were not intelligent, they were following the only things they knew.

Illiterate doesn't just mean a lack of ability to read and write, it also means that they lack knowledge in or of a particular subject.

The meaningful solutions were only meaningful in the context of what people knew and had been "taught" at the time.

Take a look at rock formations. Many show distinct layers. "Oh God made them like that." Not so, they were formed like that by being laid down over millions of years from sediments, ash & etc.

By your teachings, we are told that things were created in 7 days. Which things and when? Which 7 days? "In the beginning......" When was that? Give or take a few million years, this particular planet along with it's nearest star and it's accompanying collection of planets, moons, asteroids and associated debris were "formed" around 4.5 billion years ago.

Looking out at the night sky (at night because things are more easily visible to the naked eye), there are billions of stars, many of which have planets orbiting them. Many of those objects that we can see are much older than our little corner of the Universe. Use a telescope and you'll see much more. Use a large astronomical telescope and you'll see a great deal more. We can only see "so far". We don't know just how far the Universe extends.

Science claims things were created in "The Big Bang". They say that was around 14 billion years ago.

The people being "preached to" at the beginning of the CE had absolutely no knowledge of any of that. When things couldn't be explained, they were never told "we don't know". Explanations always fell back on "God".

Accepting for a moment that the big bang happened, I suppose because the reason for "The Big Bang" can't be explained, again it's all down to "God"?

Science can't explain whether there have been other big bangs, whether there are "other Universes" co-existing with "ours" which were created by their own big bang someplace else.

Science can't explain whether the universe as we know it has "been here before", was destroyed and eventually re-created in another big bang.

The known Universe is vast, we know very little really. Just looking at our own Galaxy (The Milky Way), there are only guesses as to how many stars there are in the whole galaxy and they vary from 100 billion to 400 billion. So did God create all those? Did God create the whole Universe? Ah-ha, I suppose the explanation that things were created in 7 days will now be interpreted as the absolute beginning (just after the big bang)????

At the beginning of the CE if some bright spark had dared to speak out and say that they thought there were 100 billion stars and each one was similar to our sun in that it was a flaming ball of matter, they'd be liable to be stoned to death.

How does your "teachings" explain that everything in the Universe over a certain size (about 250 miles) is spherical? "Ours is not to reason why"? "It's God's will"?

I could go on of course but I know it's a waste of time............

[**bustysinclaire**]

I could go on of course but I know it's a waist of time.

Yes CD with those particular points I have to agree with you, but that doesn't mean I havent found good and logical answers to them all for myself.  If you look into the Bible then all those points you raise have been answered and not just with the phrases "because God says so" or "because it is Gods Will"" science backs up a lot in the Bible, so does history and archaeology. The trouble people have is acknowledging God to be the creator and giving him the credit for our fantastic universe , planet and the things within it.

[**bustysinclaire**]

I feel I have to put something in a reply from the many tools we have at our fingertips just to answer you, so with regards the formation of our planet and 7 days, even if you don't believe it or wish to take it as a logical explanation yourself it is one.

It would be a good far as a whole but I do point to a specific paragraph or two.

Taken from a book called reasoning from the scriptures, yes one of our books but very informative in general because all our books and the Bible we use is just the most accurate translations you can get from God's word "The Bible"  that being the first ever writings is scrolls xxx

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989218

May i draw your attention to the last 2 paragraphs of the article "creation" 

What is the origin of the raw material of which the universe is made?

Scientists have learned that matter is a concentrated form of energy. This is demonstrated with the explosion of nuclear weapons. Astrophysicist Josip Kleczek states: “Most and possibly all elementary particles may be created by materialization of energy.”—The Universe (Boston, 1976), Vol. 11, p. 17.

From where could such energy come? After asking, “Who has created these things [the stars and planets]?”, the Bible states regarding Jehovah God, “Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.” (Isa. 40:26) So God himself is the Source of all the “dynamic energy” that was needed to create the universe.

Was all physical creation accomplished in just six days sometime within the past 6,000 to 10,000 years?

The facts disagree with such a conclusion: (1) Light from the Andromeda nebula can be seen on a clear night in the northern hemisphere. It takes about 2,000,000 years for that light to reach the earth, indicating that the universe must be at least millions of years old. (2) End products of radioactive decay in rocks in the earth testify that some rock formations have been undisturbed for billions of years.

Genesis 1:3-31 is not discussing the original creation of matter or of the heavenly bodies. It describes the preparation of the already existing earth for human habitation. This included creation of the basic kinds of vegetation, marine life, flying creatures, land animals, and the first human pair. All of this is said to have been done within a period of six “days.” However, the Hebrew word translated “day” has a variety of meanings, including ‘a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event.’ (Old Testament Word Studies, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1978, W. Wilson, p. 109) The term used allows for the thought that each “day” could have been thousands of years in length.

[cee-dee]

I see more mumbo jumbo in attempts to wriggle round biblical sayings by including some scientific facts coupled with distorted reasoning.

Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. So it's God that created that mass is it?

I've seen before  the "explanation" that the word "day" just might not be the same interpretation of "day" as we know it and it's a convenient get-out. However, at the time when most of the old biblical texts were written, those people would have absolutely no comprehension whatsoever that a "day" might be longer than one rotation of this planet. In fact, they had no comprehension of a planet at all, after all, the World was flat as far as they were concerned.

It's just another convenient get-out to say that the writers (or those that repeated things to the writers) were "told" by God.

Now, just because something is "written" doesn't mean it's fact. You can write anything and claim it's a fact, proving it is a different matter. You might honestly and truly believe what you've written is a fact but if someone showed you that your reasoning was wrong, you could accept it or reject it. You might reject that because you have faith in your own reasoning. Having faith in something that is clearly wrong or requires some distorted "reasoning" to "make" it a fact doesn't make it any more true than just your faith in your own explanations.

Going back to the rock formations, when the issue of the dinosaur fossils was raised on here some years back, another person who "had faith" said that the dinosaurs never walked the Earth, those rock layers and the dinosaur fossils were there because God put them there and that the Earth was only 8.000 years old.

I suppose because the length of the "day" in those ancient writings is open to a bit of "reasoned lengthening", the "years" referred to is also open to the same lengthening?

Now light travels in straight "lines"? Does it now? When I was at school, I can clearly remember another boy arguing with the science master "My brother can prove that light bends round a sphere". Now that's just plain stupid isn't it? Well, it's been proved that light does indeed bend given the right circumstances but not as simply put as that lad at school.

So, who or what bends the light? It's certainly not those who bend the truth.

[cee-dee]

After giving this all some thought, I thought that it's a bit of an imposition posting propaganda for an obscure cult on here and I wondered if I would be allowed to visit Kingdom Hall to say what I have above and what I'm about to say now and if not, why not? In the unlikely event that I was allowed there, would I be heard out or howled down?

I've mentioned the idiotic idea that it's been said the "days" were longer than what we regard as a "day" = one rotation of the Earth and that the "years" were similarly "longer" instead of the usual year = one orbit of the Earth round the sun. The idea that "Creation" occurred in 7 "days" around 4,000 BCE just cannot be anywhere near correct.

How does that "date" equate with the fact that not far from Stonehenge there are the remains of a site of ancient settlement dating back to around 8,000 BCE? I suppose God put those remains there?

Now it's been said that all the Bible writings are "The word of Jehova, the one true God".  Who can say with absolute honesty that is so? "I just know" or "I believe" just will not do. You don't know anything if you believe that. Just because it's been written doesn't mean it's true. It's true that Jesus Christ existed. It's also true that he was born and died a Jew. In all probability some of the things he said were eventually written down by others but harking back to the ancient writings of the Old Testament doesn't make them true either.

Now it's said that Noahs Flood covered the Earth. Impossible. There's not enough water to cover the Earth and if there was, where did it go? Where did it come from? Oh God sent it and made it soak in to the Earth? If you melted all the ice on Earth there wouldn't be enough water to cover the Earth. Oh yes, there WAS a flood. In fact there were many floods.

Thinking about ancient times, how much of the Earth did those people know? = Not a lot. How far could they travel? = Not far. They could walk, ride a camel or horse, use a boat but how far could they go, know and come back? = Not very far. For all they knew, the earth just went on and on and when their "world" was flooded, the whole world was flooded. What that really means is their bit of the World was flooded so if their bit was all flooded, as far as they were concerned all of "The World" was flooded.

Around the World there are many stories of a flood. That doesn't mean everywhere was flooded all at the same time.

Now Noah is supposed to have built an Ark (in record time too) big enough to accommodate a pair of all the animals of the world. Cobblers. Have you any idea how big such a vessel would be? Where'd the wood come from in such a quantity in such a time as to be able to build such a thing?

It is possible that an Ark was built and accommodated a pair of all the creatures they knew about in their bit of their world but certainly not the whole World.

Ever heard of "The Epic of Gilgamesh"? You should read it.

Now, I'm going to mention a word that might induce some groans from old-hand readers. SUMER.

Now then, there's a subject? As old-hands will know, I've written about the Sumerians many times. Now they did write things down at the time and a huge abount has survived to this day. Does that make all that they wrote true? No it doesn't.

All that stuff about beings coming here from "out there" seems a bit far fetched but you really have to ask "Why did they write it?" They say those people "told" them this, that and the other but in actual fact we're still using some of the things that they developed so a lot of what the Sumerians wrote at the time has more likelihood of being true than Biblical things which were only written on later heresay?

In conclusion (for now?) I'll just say that if there's anything inexplicable, impossible or even unlikely, all you need do to "explain" it is to smply say that "God" made it happen (or some beings from outer space?).

[cee-dee]

As with many previous threads on "this subject", I seem to have killed it off (as far as OPs are concerned anyway) by pointing out some of the unanswerable questions?

Now then, we're told that creation took six days and on the seventh day, God rested. Adam and Eve were "created" too and they had a couple of kids, Cain and Able. Cain was a naughty lad, went and killed Able so got banished.

Lo and behold he finds a wife. A Wife??? Where'd she come from then? Ah-ha, she came from the Land of Nod.

Now when Cain was wandering about, he was afraid anyone he met might kill him? Just a mo, Adam and Eve were the couple in the Garden of Eden and they had two lads. So one gets killed, the other gets banished but he's afraid anyone he meets might kill him? Where'd those people come from?

Ah well, that explains it all then? So God didn't just create the Garden of Eden, he created the Land of Nod and populated that too?

Hey, this is stretching credulity a bit much.

Our board spreaders of the word seem to go with creation having taken place around 6,000 years ago but how do they explain the existence of skeletal remains of various species of humanoids which are tens of thousands of years old and even a human skeleton found in the UK which is 10,000 years old? Ah, God put them there?

I think that if you read the ancient texts having removed the rose tinted glasses, it all might, just might start to raise questions far beyond accepting things as a fact and "having faith".

[**bustysinclaire**]

Sorry CD,

There are plenty of good answers to all that you raised, but as you stated earlier it is probably a waist of time.  Xxxx

You clearly don't know even the most prominent of details of the Bible like you think you do.  For if you did, some of the questions you raise wouldn't even need to be raised.  Xxx i.e Adam and Eve had daughter's and sons xxx

But as your mocking mode has gone into overdrive I'll leave it at that for now, unless anyone else would like to continue xxx

As you so happily point out to others CD when your thread is taken off topic I shall politely do the same.

[cee-dee]

Welcome back.

The storylines of the daughters etc of A & E give rise to them all being in continuing incestuous relationships then? Any offspring would be liable to have some defects?

You can't refute the arguments put forward which is the reason for the "mocking tone" which is a counter to the smug "We know" tone of those superior beings putting forward their beliefs.

Apart from saying "God created it" explain how the Moon was formed? Refute any of the scientific "theories" for it's formation and in particular the formation of the Moon being by some matter being split off from a collision between another planet and Earth. If that collision took place, it took place billions of years ago.

[margaret*e]

That's you told, CD.

[cee-dee]

Ha-ha, yes, and you know how bothered I am about it?

[margaret*e]

I came across another son called Seth, which was the first time I ever heard of him.

At school we were only ever taught about Cain and Abel, never daughters.

[cee-dee]

You need more reading, there's a lot to learn.

[**bustysinclaire**]

CD,

could you explain how the moon was formed to me please. xx

I am sorry I come across as smug, and I am certainly never claiming to be superior 

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

wrote:

I came across another son called Seth, which was the first time I ever heard of him.

At school we were only ever taught about Cain and Abel, never daughters.

---

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20100901/Where-Did-Cain-Find-His-Wife/#?insight[searc...

[cee-dee]

Watching TV, I'll BBL.

[margaret*e]

Thanks busty.

 I wonder if you could answer a question for me, sorry it's off topic.

Every Thursday evening I see our local Kingdom Hall is having some sort of congregation, can you tell me if this is a mass, holy day, meeting or whatever, I don't mean that to sound offensive, I don't know what it's called , I just wondered the significance of that day.