Is It Ever OK To Shout At Someone Else's Child?

[lambsy_uk]

I heard this question asked on the radio today in the wake of an incident in a restaurant in USA where a cafe owner shouted at a child after the parents had failed to keep them quiet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3168500/Diner-owner-defends-yelling-2-year-old-stop-crying.h...

I have shouted at a child on at least one occasion, other times I have at least spoken to them sternly telling then to decist from doing something.

The time I shouted at a child was about 2 years ago when I was in an outdoor play area with my girls. A young boy of about 4 or 5 years old was throwing handfuls of gravel around and much of it was hitting other children. I told him in forthright manner to pack it in and so he did, for a while. A boy of about 10 who had been taking a peppering while sitting on a ride thanked me. However a minute or two later the boy started to throw gravel again with me not far away and so I shouted "I SAID PACK IT IN", at which he ran off with his tail between his legs.

I was half expecting to be confronted by a parent or two but it didn't happen.

So what's your opinion on chastising other people's children?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Yes - Deno and Posh have a home for life here at Creekyland!

[astrologica]

But JG...teachers do not have any power. They are bound by many constraints. What they can teach is dictated by the National Curriculum. The way they deal with badly behaved pupils is governed by rules and regulations. And many teachers are subject to the whims of their Heads, some of whom are not concerned with their teachers or pupils, but only concerned with their position on League tables. Persistent absentees and badly behaved children are told to stay away on Inspection days. The worst kids are sent to Pupil Referral Units, and then brought back to school after a short break, but on their terms. My niece teaches Maths at secondary school, and I find some of the things that happen at her school unbelievable. Harry is quite right when she says that the most badly behaved get rewards, whilst the 'good' kids get nothing. There are some wonderful teachers, who go the extra mile for their hard working pupils, and who would love to be able to deal with the troublemakers as they would like, but their hands are tied.Being a good teacher these days is very difficult, and IMO it is unfair to denigrate them when most are doing their best against all the odds. They really shouldn't be expected to deal with kids whose parents couldn't be bothered to bring them up as decent human beings.

[joamur_gosof]

go on then I will bite...

who says they should...not me ,who says they should use their decent human being self to do something about it...me.

You are now agreeing that teachers are hapless no ? 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Much depends on what "it" is.

I would expect a teacher, or any other adult, witnessing a physical attack on a pupil to intervene.  Would I expect teachers to be able to predict an attack and/or be in a position to deter such an attack from taking place? - probably not.

[joamur_gosof]

even after the fact of the ongoing attacks had been discussed with all teachers involved and reported on at least 40 occasions during a 2 term period ?  Well I would expect when the names of those involved were already suspended ,on reports and so on and so on continually over the same period ,including 2 being expelled outright and then allowed to hang around the school gates chatting to said schools teachers and policeman by jove ...well erm impossible to predict...

said policeman said to me when questioned about his behaviour that I was witnessing ,he chatted with them to stop them intimidating the other children as they left school and frequently had to give threatened kids lifts home as the police had no power to tell them to leave the area ?  well yep that's following rules to the letter isn't it rather than your adult good sense...or am I wrong ?

If the teachers are following guidelines that is detrimental to the environment ,they are responsible for any detriment .

Now we can go on about things forever but to tackle the problem,teachers need to lay down the foundations they want their paid career to look like...if they only want academic involvement with the children,then it is up to them to stop taking wages until they have that or leave the profession as it is not the job they want...in that circumstance the parent is fully responsible for the child's behaviour and  of course they must pay directly for any problems their child causes. I see all the problems of implementing but  I am saying if a unity between parents and teachers demand the right to do what is right then media and government can assist or stay out of it...the problem is simply too many chefs with govs and teachers making up all the rules and structures that do not work...then conveniently with the backing of finger pointers blaming parents but not  themselves.

They need to be responsible for their jobs more that most (and most should) as the job is having groups of other peoples children in their care...do they not know this when they go for a job in teaching ?   Teachers need to demand and see how many parents back them...if next to non,then there is the answer if nearly all then there is your answer.

A big point you all appear to me to miss is how little influence parents have because of the exact same reason the teachers have next to no influence either. To say you click your fingers and your kids automatically either behave in a decent or undecent way to others is a bit mind boggling,but to say the road to respect starts at home I could not agree more and if the failing is the parent ,it will be obvious ,if the failing is outside the today parent influence ..put your fingers away.

I have seen both clearly and am not rambling on on here because I need the company 🙂

[joamur_gosof]

here is a problem ,minister of education is also minister of women's equality rights ? would have thought she had enough on her plate in either role,but does this mean education will now consist of curriculum with womens rights at the fore ? and if she then moves aside a minister of legal or army or nappies may take the role and of course force feed the system with their persona.

Its a mess ,but from what I am reading and being told by my MP , there is about to be a huge shake up of teachers as the powers that be seem to feel as I do and they are not up to the job as it is.......I do not support interfer but would like the teachers to get their own act together and start to rally for support from parents so we can all have an education system that is beneficial to all our children,with the group of adults involved all simply on the same page as to what is acceptable and what isn't. 

[silvermalc]

I know generally the advice is not too but must admit I frequently do--in many cases parents seem unwilling to control their kids.

Yesterday in Wetherspoons a party of 6--4 adults and 2 kids--the kids were running amok !! All 4 aduts were too busy on mobile phones to take any notice !!

[joamur_gosof]

correction...secretary of state for education

[upthecreekyetagain]

So by your own account the teachers did everything they possibly could in terms of disciplinary action to regulate the behaviour of certain pupils, "on report", "suspensions" and "expulsions" - in that regard what more could they do?

Again, it sounds like the local bobby did everything in his power to protect the children, even going so far as to give "threatened kids lifts home".  If the police don't have the power to force children to leave the area then again, what more could they do.

Your suggestion that teachers should demand to know what the ethos of a school is, the backing it receives from parents and the disciplinary record is something that most applying for a post would ask about.  To extrapolate from that though that those teachers who do take a post in a school with a poor disciplinary record and little parental support are therefore somehow responsible for the behaviour of pupils makes little sense.  What they do have, as I stated previously, is a duty of care - NOT the same thing as being responsible for the poor behaviour of students.

Teachers have a duty to try and ensure that children don't come to any harm when in their care - that is not the same thing as being held responsible for behaviour by pupils that is liable to cause harm.  If that were the case then it could equally be claimed that teachers who are assaulted, (killed even), were responsible for the assault on them - a ridiculous scenario.

[joamur_gosof]

Ok ,your turn then..if the adults can only do what they can do rather than be held responsible for failing to act as an adult should regardless of guidelines (guidelines is the key there) ..what do you suggest the teachers and parents of the children at risk in the enviroment because of said few do ?

I hold the system that took my child away and did not let her out responsible ...As I said ,I spoke to the parents of the kids involved of course....they were not bringing the children up to be disrespectful ..so how is it their full responsibility and not the school that allowed the kids to behave like that on their watch.

It obviously worked putting the kids on report didn't it not ,

See this is not about what happend to my family its about making sure it doesn't happen to someone else's ...listening to ''fundementally it is the parent not the teacher'' will not achieve that will it.

[joamur_gosof]

please continue as it is enlightening to see what I am up against to force the change needed,but my apologies as I will no longer say again where I feel the fault needs addressing first,I am not being ignorant ,just cannot keep going over something that only I seem able to see.

[lambsy_uk]

JG, I agree that adults on the whole should grow a pair and do what's right with more emphasis on the likes of teachers. Can't help but think much frsustration was brought on by teachers through their left-wing social experiments of started in the 70s and 80s.

I would welcome changes in society where adults have the **bleep** and/or the right to take control, all responsible adults!

However at the end of the day parents have ultimate responsibility for their children no matter how others may fail in moral or social responsibility.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@joamur_gosof wrote:

Ok ,your turn then..if the adults can only do what they can do rather than be held responsible for failing to act as an adult should regardless of guidelines (guidelines is the key there) ..what do you suggest the teachers and parents of the children at risk in the enviroment because of said few do ?

I hold the system that took my child away and did not let her out responsible ...As I said ,I spoke to the parents of the kids involved of course....they were not bringing the children up to be disrespectful ..so how is it their full responsibility and not the school that allowed the kids to behave like that on their watch.

It obviously worked putting the kids on report didn't it not ,

See this is not about what happend to my family its about making sure it doesn't happen to someone else's ...listening to ''fundementally it is the parent not the teacher'' will not achieve that will it.

---

That's the bottom line, isn't it?

What do you suggest that teachers and parents of the children at risk do?

Let's take a scenario where a child is being bullied and threatened with violence at school.  The child tells their teachers and parents of this threat.  At that point it is just one childs word against another - it is not unusual for children to make false allegations.  All teachers can do at that point is to speak to each child and their parents - the parents of the 'threatened' child can do even less - what about the parents of the child doing the threatening???

So in this situation what do you think the parents of each child should be doing and what should the teachers at the school do?

[joamur_gosof]

Yes I know ,but how can a parent have control over what is being allowed to happen in the school when the school is not telling anyone ? this is the point of responsibility I am talking about ,I witnessed the teachers talking to kids openly smoking in the mornings and then witnessed teachers patrolling on ofsted days telling kids to put the cigs out ???  

Yes parent is ultimately responsible to the child but as the schools seem to not be able to do anything about the kids rebelling against their parents advice (and thats whats going on) then the teachers are allowing bad behaviour to be the norm...is that not the teachers sytem fault ?

On the other yes exactly ,time for us all to grow some 🙂

[joamur_gosof]

lol,I can't stop answering please help 🙂

Yes what should we do ? The teachers did not inform me and when I told them I got yes we will keep an eye on things ...that turned to ''well we can't watch them in the toilets for example'' and when the child as per discussion with myself partner year tutor headteacher was told tell us...they were told just ignore them ?  I asked her myself but she said she couldn't ..so I tried to get her out and was threatened with prison if I did not send her and was always near the end telling me I was getting fines as her attendance had dropped to below the accepted level.

How is pointing all responsiblity in this system towards parents the right way to go to stopping it happening again (I know I am not the first and I know I wont be the last ...which is unexceptable . Where do we stand where do teachers stand .

[upthecreekyetagain]

You still haven't explained what you think the teachers should have done.

From what you say it sounds like your child told you of threats but not the teachers - you did the right thing by informing the teachers.  All fine up to that point but what I don't understand is exactly what you wanted them to do other than "keep an eye on things".

[joamur_gosof]

My daughter told them plenty of times ,they told her to ignore it.

I was told by them they would keep an eye on things ...never once did they contact me with 'there is a problem' but lots of threats as to what will happen if I refuse to send her in...I was told  they were watching out for the kids....after the facts they told me ' well what can we do ''   ..well except for ensuring my daughter had zero choice but to grin and bear it ...not a lot,it seems ...and after the facts it has been oops sorry yes we should have done this or that...wont bring her back and doesn't make me feel any better ...however watching and listening to the ''what are teachers supposed to do and what a job they have'' and seeing nothing has changed and then listening to folk firmly planting blame on parents alone ,sure makes me feel worse.

What I would not let the teachers do is carry on brushing the problems they have aside or passing the whole buck. They are not and did not keep the idea of parenting respect inside their system.Yourself agrees this is acceptable ,so I would allow any parent the right to remove their child from a harmful system that cannot do anything (your own words).about it.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I'm sorry but you still haven't said what you think the teachers should have done.

[upthecreekyetagain]

http://www.lawandparents.co.uk/regulations-surrounding-the-home-schooling-of-your-child.html

[joamur_gosof]

I think I have said what I think the teachers should have done ..well the school should have done. Been aware of the damage the children who were causing it was doing ,listened to what the kids were saying etc..

Here is one of the reasons one kid was immediately suspended for a week...they swore at a teacher...the same kid swore at other kids and threatened them ...err no suspension...what the flip is suspending kids ok for disrespecting the teacher and not the other children about...so yep they can do things when they want to,like patrolling the area on ofsted visits ...its laughable no .

the link is interesting and home tutoring was exactly what we were trying to get..however it was all about income for some reason and it was also told to me it was not allowed after the age of 11 as the children had to attend for social reasons.  A psychiatrists I know had a 4 year fight to get her daughter home tutored and won eventually ,her daughter was being bullied by a teacher,she was luckier than me though as she had financial clout to get them in court to win but they gave up and allowed her to before the court hearing....she can tell you a tale or two about the system in place today.

Anyway ,as I said ..your turn. What would you like to see happening in education and how will that create the perfect balance.Or is all good ?