HMP Berwyn

[astrologica]

Anyone fancy a stay at the lovely new hotel,...sorry....prison in North Wales?  You won't be able to see much of the scenery, but you will have a cracking state of the art room, television, computer, and mobile phone so that you can ring your kids every night to say 'Goodnight'. And your 'staff' will have to knock before they enter your room. It sounds wonderful....if you fancy it, get in there quickly, as places are limited. 

Unbelievable...what incentive is there for living life by the rules?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Make  it as plush as you like - I wouldn't want to be an inmate! - would you?

[littleme61_6]

Exactly!. No incentive at all. Yet so many law-abiding elderly, infirm, etc are struggling to make ends meet, worrying about bills coming in, and so in need of help in their day to day living. I bet they feel sick to the pit of their stomachs to hear what is there at that prison. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@littleme61_6 wrote:

Exactly!. No incentive at all. Yet so many law-abiding elderly, infirm, etc are struggling to make ends meet, worrying about bills coming in, and so in need of help in their day to day living. I bet they feel sick to the pit of their stomachs to hear what is there at that prison. 

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There are no reports that I've seen that this new prison has cost more, will have higher running costs or will require higher staffing levels than any other prison.

Would you or any of the infirm or elderly you mention really consider two people confined to this room as luxurious?

[littleme61_6]

With that thought I agree with you totally. 

Just I was thinking many struggle on the money they get at home to heat, or even buy anything that seemingly many in prison are provided with. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

There just doesn't seem to be the money to go around, I agree. 

[astrologica]

Personally, no. And I could do without the TV and the mobile phone if I were in there. But I bet there are plenty of homeless people who would love a few nights in there...safe, warm, and with good food all laid on.  While prisons are like that, there is no incentive to stay on the right side of the law in order to not have to go back in there. Prisons should be places where no-one wants to spend a minute longer than necessary.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I guess it comes down to the purpose of prisons.  The phone, television, computer etc all have to be "earned" and are not 'rights' but tools to be used by the prison authorities.

I'm not convinced either that such luxuries make prison less of a deterrent.  The only real deterrent to crime I believe is to increase the probability of being caught.  Very few crimes, I would suggest, are committed by individuals who know and believe they will be caught. 

This, and past, government's policy seems to be that it is better to invest in the prisons rather than the police.

The prison population has almost doubled in the last 25 years, (in terms of percentage of population over two thirds).  The government response to those figures seems to have been to reduce the number of police officers!

[evoman3957]

Criminal steals £100,000 and gets caught ( perhaps )......criminal gets 3 or 4 years ( say 4 )........that's £25,000 per year TAX FREE & NETT. The state can't get the money back, because the criminal has got it invested somewhere where it can't be found / traced.  The state can't seize criminals assets, because the criminal doesn't have any assets; he / she lives in rented accommodation, along with their " brood ".  Criminal's wife and children then go onto welfare, kept by the state in their existing accommodation; while criminal resides, rent free, in her majesty's establishment.........with his / her TV, Computer, En-suite bathroom facilities, free access to doctors, dentists, chiropodists, etc. etc. On his / her release, his / her £100,000 has now become £120,000 + and he / she can enjoy the monthly rental income from the " buy to let " it probably bought.

I had 16 YEARS of this ******* **** .........IDIOTS are still running the prisons in this country and IDIOT do-gooders, are still believing that giving up their freedom matters to a criminal; instead of realizing that they regard it as an occupational hazard. Anybody who knows what makes criminals tick, like I do, feel free to comment.....................I suggest the rest just shut their ignorant mouths.......I need opinions on THIS subject like I need a hole in the head.........society's dying of opinions. Just get somebody who can do their job PROPERLY for once and isn't one of life's incompetents, who's allowed to shuffle along from one SCREW UP to the next; never paying any kind of price !!!!!

[upthecreekyetagain]

In which case what is the problem with a modern prison such as HMP Berwyn which by all accounts will be cheaper to run and require less manpower than the old Victorian prisons?

[fallen-archie]

I was under the misapprehension that prison was both a punishment and a means of rehabilitation. I don't mind if prisoners earn better conditions by demonstrating their desire for rehabilitation but earn it they must! At the moment things like drugs and mobile phones are randomly smuggled into our prisons and that needs to be stopped, anyone found using a mobile or high on drugs should be placed in solitary or at least punished, the problem is that if the regime fails to change the individual for the better it has failed the community as a whole.

[right-then-petal]

how would you run that new prison (  open question )

           Hello Archie

[astrologica]

Creeky...I'm not concerned with how much it costs to run. My point was that there is absolutely no incentive to live by the rules. As I said, there are homeless people who would love those warm, clean, safe beds. And there are thousands of hard working people who are law abiding and are working hard, or have worked to retirement, who are living so close to the breadline that they can't afford to eat and heat. Shouldn't they have a nice life before these criminals? Millions of people would like to go to the gym and keep fit, but they can't afford the subscriptions. These criminals get that for nothing. I , and lots of other people, would like to get into further education, but it costs too much, but the criminals get that free, gratis too. As I said....there is no incentive....criminals get all the rewards. 

[cee-dee]

This afternoon I was talking to a chap who works there and has done during the building. It seems that some blokes went for lunch and left all their tools lying about and the blokes who were supposed to be "guarding" the area also went to lunch....... He says they got the sack! Serves 'em right, if prisoners had got hold of some of those tools who knows what they'd have done with them?

He reckons it's too cushy there, everything is top notch, prisoners can order their food, got TVs, laptops and phones, the gym equipment is also all top of the line gear so what incentive is there to go straight?

When prisoners get released, if they get a job it's not going to be able to sustain a lifestyle like that inside.

Soooooo, thinking about it, surely the life in prison should be of the same standard as a prisoner could afford "on the outside"? How much per week would it cost to maintain a similar standard as that inside?

If new thinking is to concentrate on rehabilitation, isn't providing prisoners with a cushy time in prison the wrong way to go about it because there's no incentive to change their ways because criminal behaviour pays better than "normal" work so the criminal income pays for a better lifestyle than a legitimate one?

[evoman3957]

If it was up to me, they be fixing the **** roads in this country ( that council budgets won't allow them to fix ) for FREE.

They'd be picking the fruit etc. that farmers say they need cheap foreign labour to pick, because the British won't do it.

They'd be painting buildings that need painting and tidying up the parks and gardens that need tidying up.

they'd be PAYING BACK SOCIETY........that's for ******* sure !!!!

and those no good, lily livered, do-gooders, who are screwing up this country.............could stick the European court of human rights where the Sun don't shine. Those rights apply to law abiding citizens, who actually know what respecting OTHER PEOPLES human rights means........that's my last comment on this matter, because after 16 years of being surrounded by this " Scum " and the IDIOTS who defend and protect them.......I've had a Gut Full.

[upthecreekyetagain]

What sort of lifestyle are you talking about?

One where you are forced to share a room with a criminal and can only leave if someone unlocks the door.

Maybe it's the one football pitch shared between 2,000 prisoners or is it the gym?  Wow a gym, one of modern life's luxuries.

Oh no it must be the phone that can only call one or two numbers, the tv that only works during certain hours or the computer which can be used to let the canteen know in advance what you want to select from its no doubt gourmet menu but can't check the weather because it's not connected to the internet.

The job opportunity where the minimum wage doesn't apply and on average pays the huge sum of £10 for a 32 hour week.  

Yep, I bet they'll be queuing up to get back in.

[cee-dee]

That's just it, the regulars don't seem to mind.

Last week a bloke over 60 was up in court again, he'd spent more than half his life in prison with over 300 previous convictions.

Now the do-gooders would say "It just shows you, prison doesn't work". That's right because it's too soft = no deterrent.

[fallen-archie]

As I said prison is meant to rehabilate not produce perpetual offenders. The fact that so many return to prison idicates to me that the present system is failing us all. If providing better facilities acheives this then so be it however I suspect it will not work after all who wants to employ a convicted criminal? and how many criminals are prepared to work for £8 per hour when they can earn a great deal more from crime? That is our problem and one which we are no way near fixing.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Prison has never fully deterred crime, nor has the death penalty, transportation, roadgangs or any other forms of punishment - nor will it ever do so until the likelihood of detection is increased radically. 

The potential rewards for criminal acts are so much higher than the potential penalties.  Very difficult to decrease the rewards the only option is to increase detection rates.

Evo described the scenario of someone jailed for four years for stealing £100,000 - for every case like that there must be a hundred where the sums involved are far lower - it makes far more sense to address these cases ahead of the exceptional ones.

Combining increased detection rates together with action to address the problems prisoners face on release, that you describe, has to be the way forward. 

[bankhaunter]

Some people who have spent a lot of time in prison become institutionalised much like those who have been in the Army, they get used to being regimented and find outside life difficult to cope with.

Many petty offenders are too stupid to realise just how little they get for the total amount of effort they put it when everything is taken into consideration, they think they are jack the lad because they assume they are getting money without working.

There are campaigns to end prison for women for all but the most serious offences, much of the reasoning behind it, if applied to men, would reduce the prison population by at least 50%, also women get shorter sentences for the same crime anyway.