Fiver furore farce

[suzieseaside]

So over 100,000 vegetarins, vegans, Hindus, Sikhs and Jains are 'outraged' and have signed a petition about the tiny amounts of tallow in the new fivers.

I guess none of them go horse riding for fear of touching a cow's hide saddle or holding the reins, or sit on leather chairs/ car seats. 

Better beware touching plastic bags when you go shopping -  they contain animal fats.

They presumably don't ride bicycles (stearic acid in tyres), use condoms, buy their kids crayons, or use candles, and they must be very careful what soaps, toothpaste and cosmetics they touch.

You don't eat fivers, so I don't really get it, although  I suppose that very strict vegans or religious groups that cannot contact beef products may have a case. 

But I'm willing to bet that the vast proportion who signed the petition use some products that contain substances derived from animal fats if it suits them, or they have not reseached the vast number of other products that they should avoid if they consider that fiver is unnacceptable. 

For the majority I reckon it's just another excuse to complain about something and get on a petition bandwagon.  

[kidmore_kats]

Great research, thanks for taking the time to share this with the group

[jd.linklater]

I thought exactly the same when I read about this petition, nobody is expecting them to eat them lol. And as you say, very few people know the constituents of things they use in everyday life. A lot of fuss about nothing in my opinion, I get the feeling that some people actively seek out things to be offended by just to have their voices heard.

There are far more important things to be concerned about.

[fallen-archie]

If I were a vegetarian I would not object to receiving a suitcase full of fivers plastic or otherwise, this is another example of the victim state, will we see cases of historic vegan abuse surface in twenty years time, I'm sure there is a claims lawyer preparing the paperwork as we speak, what a bunch of sad people.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I'm wonder if a similar level of scepticism was voiced back in 1857 over the use of pre-greased paper cartridges provided to the Sepoy army in India?

[cee-dee]

All over the place there's vociferous minorities that expect everyone else to dance to their tune and it seems were daft enough to do it.

They demand that we respect their minority viewpoint but where's their respect for the majority?

It's (supposedly) a free country to do nearly anything you want and live the way you want so why don't they just shut up and get on with their chosen way of life without pestering the rest of us with their whims?

[fallen-archie]

Or did they wash there mouths out using soap made from this:-

 www.theprairiehomestead.com/2012/02/how-to-render-beef-tallow.

[023mjc]

Any one in one of those groups who doesn't want their new fivers, are welcome to pass them on to me for safe disposal.

[bankhaunter]

I had to laugh at an article in the Guardian vociferously complaining that the existence of a trace of tallow is an example of shiftiness in a lust for profit.   Within the article was this quote,

Veganism, as defined by the Vegan Society, is a bid “to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose”.

If all the £5 notes now in circulation, some 329 million, were the new ones with the tallow, the total amount of tallow used in their manufacture, would come from just a little over half a cow.

I think that as far as is possible and practicable would more than cover that.    Storm in a raindrop springs to mind.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

All over the place there's vociferous minorities that expect everyone else to dance to their tune and it seems were daft enough to do it.

They demand that we respect their minority viewpoint but where's their respect for the majority?

It's (supposedly) a free country to do nearly anything you want and live the way you want so why don't they just shut up and get on with their chosen way of life without pestering the rest of us with their whims?

---

Is listening to minorities really "dancing to their tune" or simply the sign of a civilised society?

The idea that a majority In a democracy should always get their way irrespective of the effect that may have on minorities is one that would only lead to anarchy.

If we had a referendum on reducing tax by 10p in the pound and abolishing Council Tax I'd be very surprised if the result was anything other than a yay!  The effect on the less fortunate in regards to benefits, pensions etc. would be catastrophic but by your argument those suffering from that decision are  the minority and the views of the majority should always be followed.

[cee-dee]

As with everything there is reason, except for those unable or unwilling to be reasonable. Many vociferous minorities are unreasonable

It's unreasonable to expect the majority to have to change something on the say-so of a rigid minority.

Before you continue with the "suffering from...." argument, there are degrees of minority.

If something was disagreed upon and it was a simple yes-or-no, then the majority "win", end of. For a more complicated issue where many different points were to be decided upon by a yes-no decision and it ended up 51% against 49%, then the views and wishes of the 49% should be taken in to consideration in that case, not to change the actual outcome but to modify the points decided upon.

As to the current issue of "fat in the fivers", I think the earlier point made at #9 illustrate the stupidity of the argument.

If those whinging about the fivers were taken round everything they own and told what animal products were within the manufacture of their belongings and were made to discard them, they'd probably have very little left.

[suzieseaside]

I agree, apart from the few very strict vegans and vegetarians who have researched every product to see which have alternative plant constituents.

I know plenty of vegetarians and one vegan who happily drink various brands of beer in the pub.  I doubt that the ones I know have researched every brewer to see which ones don't use isinglass from fish swim bladders to clear the beer (and some wine).  They may not even know what isinglass is.

Next a petition against Brewers? If it hasn't already happened.

[suzieseaside]

I looked and found there was one, about 7 years ago

Only 351 supporters!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/real-ale-for-all/

Still, I gather that Guiness have been looking for alternatives to isinglass.

I'm sure no-one is killing fish just for their swim bladders - must be a bi-product just like so many other product constituents.  Seems to me that while most people are eating animal products there's no point in wasting the bi-products of the resource.  There are alternatives for those that want to avoid touching anything containing animal products, if they look into it.  They may have to pay more, but that's their choice.

£5 notes are a bit trickier - they will have to demand change in coins, or wear gloves!  I don't think fivers ever come out of ATMs and I suppose that after this petition the Bank of England wont be putting tallow in new notes of other denominations when they are produced, and probably not in fivers in the future.  What then - will vegans and certain religious groups check the serial numbers of fivers before accepting them?

[bankhaunter]

It is said that the notes contain a 'trace' of tallow. 

Technically a trace is less than 100 parts per million, a fiver weighs 0.7 grams making the tallow content approximately 0.00007grams.

I am willing to bet not one person who signed the petition has the slightest idea of just how little is in the notes.

Unfortunately these days the internet is full of social justice warriors only to eager to sign petitions and loudly complain without actually looking properly at the thing they are complaining about.  Many protest on behalf of others, not necessarily themselves, whether those others would be unhappy or not.

I would agree minorities should not be ignored but it is important to check at least they have a case.

As suggested earlier, there are probably many items which have trace amount of animal products in them and which vegans etc, know nothing about.    The Vegan Society themselves do not insist all such traces are absolutely forbidden regardless of the circumstances.