Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

 

The Clacton MP's decision to join Nigel Farage is like the rest of his career, principled and decent writes Peter Oborne - Daily Telegraph's chief political commentator.

 

Well it certainly makes for some exitement at last...as the Tory whips scramble to secure party against further departures after the Eurosceptic MP triggers Clacton  byelection. 

 

And he is honourable and decent enough to deflect on principle.

 

Eight Tory MP's are reported to be talking to Ukip about deflection?  (we will see) ..... Smiley LOL

Message 1 of 173
See Most Recent
172 REPLIES 172

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

OK while ukip might not be a ray of hope in reality the rest are proven liars and cheats, as for ukips policies, it makes no odds really as none of them do what their manifesto's say they will, It's Hobson's choice .
Message 102 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@0125arwen wrote:
OK while ukip might not be a ray of hope in reality the rest are proven liars and cheats, as for ukips policies, it makes no odds really as none of them do what their manifesto's say they will, It's Hobson's choice .

I'm with you on that which is why I never vote for a party but for the man or woman standing for election. 

 

Makes it difficult for me to understand why those calling for 'change' in Clacton ended up voting for the same person that had represented them for the previous nine years!

Message 103 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@0125arwen wrote:
OK while ukip might not be a ray of hope in reality the rest are proven liars and cheats

UKIP are also part of the "liars and cheats" brigade. It also appears UKIP's MEP's have the highest conviction rates for fraud!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6975627.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/6545334/Disgraced-ex-Ukip-MEP-Tom-Wise-jailed-for-two-years...

 

Plus, ukip are the only Party refusing an audit

Message 104 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@bookhunter2007 wrote:

@0125arwen wrote:
OK while ukip might not be a ray of hope in reality the rest are proven liars and cheats

UKIP are also part of the "liars and cheats" brigade. It also appears UKIP's MEP's have the highest conviction rates for fraud!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6975627.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/6545334/Disgraced-ex-Ukip-MEP-Tom-Wise-jailed-for-two-years...

 

Plus, ukip are the only Party refusing an audit


Only because they never prosecuted the other hundreds of fraudsters.

Message 105 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@0125arwen wrote:

Only because they never prosecuted the other hundreds of fraudsters.


 

Evidence?

Message 106 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

yes

Message 107 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

At least 389 of them, that's forgetting or ignoring the convicted criminals
Message 108 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

It's complete nonsense that Ukip is full of closet racists. I've found that most of them are actually quite open about it

Message 109 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

and before anybody feels it necessary to inform me, yes I know it's a spoof account.

Message 110 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

The writing was on the wall, they wouldn't read it never mind listen?

 

Perhaps they'll listen now....?

 



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

Message 111 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@upthecreekyetagain wrote:


Lambsy

 

That is precisely the point I was trying to make - whatever a politician says or writes down in terms of policy can be taken as a promise or pledge, normally with the intention of gaining votes or can be described by others when the policies don't come to fruition as excusable because they were only aims or circumstances have changed.

 

Essentially it does come down to semantics or the meaning of a particular statement.  When the leader of a political party announces on national television that, "We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT", just days before a General Election then I take the meaning of that statement as a promise not to raise VAT - I certainly consider it a "broken promise", (or at the very least deception), when the Chancellor announces just 7 weeks after the General Election that VAT will be increased.

 

You can argue semantically that it is possible plans changed in less than two months over something so basic - personally I consider that a broken promise.


No they can't be taken as promises or pleadges unless it is stated they are promises or pleadges! Anyone who views an aim as a pledge is very misguided! Because circumsatances change is the reason politicians make few promises, one has to be daft not to appreciate this!

 

If you take a statement saying "we have no plans to" to mean "we promise not to" then I'm afraid you're misguided and a victim of your own misjudgement. I fail to see how you can consider it to be a broken promise when a promise was never made!

 

You may take it to be a broken promise which all well and good, but also wrong!!!

 

I suppose you could argue that politicians should recognise that many of the electorate struggle to comprehend what is being said and should therefore perhaps reiterate all they say, but I doubt this would make much difference!

Message 112 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@lambsy_uk wrote:

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:


Lambsy

 

That is precisely the point I was trying to make - whatever a politician says or writes down in terms of policy can be taken as a promise or pledge, normally with the intention of gaining votes or can be described by others when the policies don't come to fruition as excusable because they were only aims or circumstances have changed.

 

Essentially it does come down to semantics or the meaning of a particular statement.  When the leader of a political party announces on national television that, "We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT", just days before a General Election then I take the meaning of that statement as a promise not to raise VAT - I certainly consider it a "broken promise", (or at the very least deception), when the Chancellor announces just 7 weeks after the General Election that VAT will be increased.

 

You can argue semantically that it is possible plans changed in less than two months over something so basic - personally I consider that a broken promise.


No they can't be taken as promises or pleadges unless it is stated they are promises or pleadges! Anyone who views an aim as a pledge is very misguided! Because circumsatances change is the reason politicians make few promises, one has to be daft not to appreciate this!

 

If you take a statement saying "we have no plans to" to mean "we promise not to" then I'm afraid you're misguided and a victim of your own misjudgement. I fail to see how you can consider it to be a broken promise when a promise was never made!

 

You may take it to be a broken promise which all well and good, but also wrong!!!

 

I suppose you could argue that politicians should recognise that many of the electorate struggle to comprehend what is being said and should therefore perhaps reiterate all they say, but I doubt this would make much difference!


Oxford English Dictionary

 

Promise (n) - An indication that something is likely to occur:

 

A statement days prior to a General Election that there are no plans to raise VAT may not be a positive promise but it certainly fits the description of a negative one.

 

You may not want to accept this scenario as fitting the definition of a promise which is fair enough - maybe the better phrase to use to describe it would be "outright lie".

 

 

Message 113 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@upthecreekyetagain wrote:


Oxford English Dictionary

 

Promise (n) - An indication that something is likely to occur:

 

A statement days prior to a General Election that there are no plans to raise VAT may not be a positive promise but it certainly fits the description of a negative one.

 

You may not want to accept this scenario as fitting the definition of a promise which is fair enough - maybe the better phrase to use to describe it would be "outright lie".

 

 


If at the time there were no plans to increase VAT it is not a lie either!

 

No plans means no plans, it does not mean it won't happen!

 

I've no plans to go on holiday next year but it doesn't mean it will not happen!

Message 114 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

lansby should obviously work as a politician,as the nonsense im reading is very similar to the nonsense im hearing off politicians.

 

Bottom line is pretty simple to understand for everyone..all politicians who want votes will tell you anything to get them .

 

not a lie not a pledge or promise ? ,then why dont they just stand there looking stupid saying nowt..as proved by lansby's own argument 'its just hot air for the sake of it.

 

Obviously thats a vote winner then .

Message 115 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@joamur_gosof wrote:

lansby should obviously work as a politician,as the nonsense im reading is very similar to the nonsense im hearing off politicians.

 

Bottom line is pretty simple to understand for everyone..all politicians who want votes will tell you anything to get them .

 

not a lie not a pledge or promise ? ,then why dont they just stand there looking stupid saying nowt..as proved by lansby's own argument 'its just hot air for the sake of it.

 

Obviously thats a vote winner then .


Obviously as you seem to be easily misled!

Message 116 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@lambsy_uk wrote:

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:


Oxford English Dictionary

 

Promise (n) - An indication that something is likely to occur:

 

A statement days prior to a General Election that there are no plans to raise VAT may not be a positive promise but it certainly fits the description of a negative one.

 

You may not want to accept this scenario as fitting the definition of a promise which is fair enough - maybe the better phrase to use to describe it would be "outright lie".

 

 


If at the time there were no plans to increase VAT it is not a lie either!

 

No plans means no plans, it does not mean it won't happen!

 

I've no plans to go on holiday next year but it doesn't mean it will not happen!


And you really believe that there weren't at least contingency plans for an increase in VAT in place?  Either there were or economic policy was cobbled together in just a matter of weeks that resulted in a VAT rise - not sure which is worse!

 

Carry on believing That David Cameron was being open and honest, had no intention to mislead voters and was not insinuating a promise not to increase VAT - - - - - you may say I'.m misguided and a victim of my own misjudgement - maybe but I'm not that gullible to believe there really were no plans to raise VAT!

Message 117 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@upthecreekyetagain wrote:


And you really believe that there weren't at least contingency plans for an increase in VAT in place?  Either there were or economic policy was cobbled together in just a matter of weeks that resulted in a VAT rise - not sure which is worse!

 

Carry on believing That David Cameron was being open and honest, had no intention to mislead voters and was not insinuating a promise not to increase VAT - - - - - you may say I'.m misguided and a victim of my own misjudgement - maybe but I'm not that gullible to believe there really were no plans to raise VAT!


It doesn't matter what you believe it matters what you can prove; if you're going to call someone a liar I'd suggest you need to be able to prove it!

 

Remember at the time the statement was made they were not in government, perhaps things had to change once the severity of the mess inherrited was fully exposed! As for contingency plans that's exactly what they are; alternative plans in case the original intention proves un-workable. I'm planning on going out for Christmas dinner this year however if something gets messed up I'll have it at home. Currently I have no plans to have Christmas dinner at home!

 

Maybe David Cameron knew exactly what he was doing, maybe he knew a VAT rise was a likely option, maybe he did intend to mislead; but I don't know that for a fact and neither do you! What I do know is if someone said to me "we have no plans to ......" I'd personally be a bit more careful regarding what I read into that!

 

Your judgement that there was a plan to raise VAT may be correct but we don't know that for sure, what we do know for sure is that no commitment was made either way and if you're not so gullible I'd expect you to recognise this! If you're not gullible you can't be surprised by the VAT rise!

Message 118 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@lambsy_uk wrote:

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:


And you really believe that there weren't at least contingency plans for an increase in VAT in place?  Either there were or economic policy was cobbled together in just a matter of weeks that resulted in a VAT rise - not sure which is worse!

 

Carry on believing That David Cameron was being open and honest, had no intention to mislead voters and was not insinuating a promise not to increase VAT - - - - - you may say I'.m misguided and a victim of my own misjudgement - maybe but I'm not that gullible to believe there really were no plans to raise VAT!


It doesn't matter what you believe it matters what you can prove; if you're going to call someone a liar I'd suggest you need to be able to prove it!

 

Remember at the time the statement was made they were not in government, perhaps things had to change once the severity of the mess inherrited was fully exposed! As for contingency plans that's exactly what they are; alternative plans in case the original intention proves un-workable. I'm planning on going out for Christmas dinner this year however if something gets messed up I'll have it at home. Currently I have no plans to have Christmas dinner at home!

 

Maybe David Cameron knew exactly what he was doing, maybe he knew a VAT rise was a likely option, maybe he did intend to mislead; but I don't know that for a fact and neither do you! What I do know is if someone said to me "we have no plans to ......" I'd personally be a bit more careful regarding what I read into that!

 

Your judgement that there was a plan to raise VAT may be correct but we don't know that for sure, what we do know for sure is that no commitment was made either way and if you're not so gullible I'd expect you to recognise this! If you're not gullible you can't be surprised by the VAT rise!


What makes you think I was taken by surprise by the increase in VAT.

 

Broken promises and misleading statements coming from politicians shouldn't really surprise anyone - what surprises me is the number of people willing to excuse such behaviour.

Message 119 of 173
See Most Recent

Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.


@lambsy_uk wrote:

@joamur_gosof wrote:

lansby should obviously work as a politician,as the nonsense im reading is very similar to the nonsense im hearing off politicians.

 

Bottom line is pretty simple to understand for everyone..all politicians who want votes will tell you anything to get them .

 

not a lie not a pledge or promise ? ,then why dont they just stand there looking stupid saying nowt..as proved by lansby's own argument 'its just hot air for the sake of it.

 

Obviously thats a vote winner then .


Obviously as you seem to be easily misled!


yes I am ,very easily misled..which is better than being easily led by a bunch of liars (albeit not really liars at all lol)

Message 120 of 173
See Most Recent