30-03-2016 9:51 AM
When it was announced that TaTa ( Indian ) Steel, was going to close the Steel works at Port Talbot and possibly sell off ALL its Steel interests in the UK; putting ( potentially ) 15000 people out of work..........I HAD A VISION !!
Stop the overseas aid budget to INDIA and plough the money into the Steel Industry, I'd make them pay.......one way or another.
China's meteoric rise, to compete for top spot as the World's leading economy, was accompanied by an equally meteoric building programme. Among other things, this included steel plants; being built at the rate of one every couple of months or so. This made China self sufficient in Steel and CHEAP Steel ( due to extremely low production costs, compared to other Countries ) with Steel workers earning £50 to £100 per week. Hardly a level playing field now is it !! , however; had that steel remained in China, it would only have excluded that one market as an outlet for other Steel producers........annoying as it would have been, others would have survived. BUT, as China's economy has slowed dramatically ( including its building programmes ) it finds itself well overstocked with its own cheap steel........which it has now dumped onto the Worlds markets.
As we all know that the UK is NEVER going to be able to compete, with certain other Countries, when it comes to production costs; our main strengths lie in industries that are more advanced than other countries.......and therefore gives us the edge. One has to ask, however, that if our trade hinges so strongly on remaining in the EU.........How is all this cheap CHINESE Steel finding its way in. When did China join the EU ?? did I blink and miss something..........Add to that the fact that we didn't need the EU to negotiate THAT trade deal, did we, I'm sure we could have done that ALL BY OURSELVES.![]()
30-03-2016 6:36 PM
As far as I know, they could only do that by using their "Veto" and I haven't heard about them doing that; so if you can find some corroboration, a link would be handy. I take it this would also be the same government, that want us to remain in the EU.......I don't know about you, but the more they open their mouths; the more I'm inclined to do the opposite.......to ensure my survival.![]()
30-03-2016 6:43 PM
30-03-2016 6:46 PM
Even more reason to leave the EU......their vested interests obviously don't lie with their own Country and its people.
30-03-2016 6:54 PM
Looking at some independent facts on steel by far the most outstanding factor is the market price of steel which has plummeted from around £450 per ton to £160 per ton, that kind of drop is not sustainable in any circumstances. The reason for the fall is entirely the ridiculous output in China which dwarfs the output of any other nation. We have a Government which supports a market economy however China only plays with markets choosing to take whatever meets it's own interests therefore using my own fallable logic Chinese steel should be given import tarrifs which would make it more expensive than European steel, not because they need to be punished but more because they are causing the problem and it is they that should take a hit.
30-03-2016 7:05 PM
Agreed........those that aren't prepared to take steps to protect their own country and Its economy, obviously don't act in its best interests and shouldn't be believed on anything else, regarding what's in the country's best interests.
30-03-2016 7:07 PM
@fallen-archie wrote:Looking at some independent facts on steel by far the most outstanding factor is the market price of steel which has plummeted from around £450 per ton to £160 per ton, that kind of drop is not sustainable in any circumstances. The reason for the fall is entirely the ridiculous output in China which dwarfs the output of any other nation. We have a Government which supports a market economy however China only plays with markets choosing to take whatever meets it's own interests therefore using my own fallable logic Chinese steel should be given import tarrifs which would make it more expensive than European steel, not because they need to be punished but more because they are causing the problem and it is they that should take a hit.
Wouldn't that wipe out whatever exports we have left such as car building, ship building and heavy engineering?
30-03-2016 7:13 PM
Possibly, but we need facts if we are to understand what options are available, it would be far better if China would voluntarily reduce production but if they don't we won't be the only casualty. Perhaps nationalisation (short term) is the only way to protect our stategic interests.
30-03-2016 7:23 PM
Aren't China really doing exactly what many are calling for the British government to do? They are supporting their steel industry and workers jobs by subsidising production costs thus allowing the steel produced to be sold at less than cost.
Complaining about the Chinese gets us nowhere - why shouldn't they support their workers - once demand in the Chinese economy picks up then no doubt so will the price of steel.
30-03-2016 7:27 PM
Yes again you are correct, so that being the case and if you feel the Industry IS worth saving how best can this be acheived?
30-03-2016 7:32 PM
@fallen-archie wrote:Yes again you are correct, so that being the case and if you feel the Industry IS worth saving how best can this be acheived?
By doing the same as the Chinese and other European nations have - reduce the industries costs as regards energy demands currently placed on them, lower the eco demands and ensure that government contracts use British steel. In addition there are numerous back door methods of subsidy that can be applied that would allow the industry to offer competitive prices.
30-03-2016 7:34 PM
Steel, like energy is a strategic resource and allowing production to end in this country could very well come back to bite us, especially if we do leave the EU. Nobody knows what may happen in the future and a trade war could decimate our economy.
30-03-2016 7:51 PM
As usual this is yet another Web, weaved by the government; that they've got themselves entangled in.......they're not clever enough to play those sorts of games, but won't admit it. The reason they won't impose tariffs on Chinese Steel imports, is because they've only just signed trade deals, with the Chinese, worth £ Billions........one of the major ones, being to build and run the next nuclear power station in this Country.....and probably a few more thereafter.
30-03-2016 8:09 PM
31-03-2016 6:00 AM
Guess who, as a Government & in the EU, for many many years, have blocked imposing sanctions,against Chinese 'less than cost' Steel imports.
Yes, Dodgy Dave and the Cons
31-03-2016 11:19 PM
Let's look at the situation from a business point of view?
First, if you were TATA, would you sell your UK plants to what would then be a competitor?
If you were a "potential buyer" how would you compete with China where workers might be paid £200 a month?
If you bought the steel plants and continued producing steel, who would you sell it to?
Just looking at the above, would you put any money in to the UK steel business?
The UK used to have a big shipbuilding industry but where are the ships built now? = South Korea, China and Japan.
The only thing is, those countries turn out so much stuff, in the end there'll be so much of it kicking around, no-one will want it because they've saturated the market. They've certainly boomed, but over production will lead to bust!
I think it'll be goodnight, ta-ta.
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
01-04-2016 6:24 AM - edited 01-04-2016 6:26 AM
Dodgy David and Gideon all over Yesterdays media LYING through their teeth
NO British Government representative was anywhere near the Tata Steel talks in India
They both said yesterday, that they were working hard with the EU to take action against Chinese steel dumping - LYING again, they in fact did the exact opposite, by continually blocking EU action on imposing meaningful tariffs
Cameron was in China recently Not slowing their steel imports into the UK, but signing deals to import even more.
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Their 'actions' in Redcar in the supposed £80 million AID package to help the sacked Steel workers has been all PR with little real Jobs, loads of workers on ineffective Training schemes, designed solely for the purpose of keeping them off the unemployment figures. The Job Fairs (with No real Jobs) & their other schemes Have all cost a fortune to the Taxpayer with little or No help to the sacked workers.
Oh and an Invisible Employment Minister, who couldn't even hurry to catch the first plane home, when called back by by the PM
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A running Steel Industry is a must for the Country, it is like water, Gas, Electricity, a national asset, just like our Shipyards that still build our Warships.
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Other EU Countries finds 'ways' around 'anti-State Aid' rules for the Industries they Count as essential, it just needs a Government that cares about Industry and views it as important as the 'Banking sector' that Cameron & Gideon protect at ANY cost, they find ways around the EU rules on Banking easily enough, time to put the same effort into saving another essential sector of our Countrys infrastructure.
01-04-2016 1:31 PM
I have a lot of sympathy for those workers in a very difficult position at the moment, after all I have family members myself who work at Tata. I also understand though that if steel was being produced here at a higher 'sustainable' price than cheaper foreign imports (that unless we exported all of it), we'd similarly be complaining that the extra cost had to be reflected somewhere in the end products and services we purchase or the taxes we pay, so it's a vicious circle and any 'subsidising' also has to be paid for from somewhere else (Robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak).
I do hope that some sort of solution can be brokered, although for anything produced in large volumes, the UK is always going to struggle to compete. We'll never have the economies of scale from producing in high enough numbers to compete on the world stage with countries many times the size of our own. Where we obviously excel when we're able to produce a superior product that has strong demand for it.
Sadly lowest price will almost always be the number one driver.
I'm not trying to offer excuses (and will probably get shot down in flames) but I'm just saying that it's far easier to criticise when we don't have all the facts, so can't suggest meaningful solutions. I would love to hear that a deal could be found to safegaurd all of those jobs and those that potentially have a knock on effect from it.
01-04-2016 2:02 PM
Tata is complaining about China but was itself a massive beneficiary of an earlier round of globalisation which put it in the position to take over British Steel; sauce for the goose...
Late last year Tata put its Research and Development wing, which had been British Steel's R&D department into a new Not For Profit organisation, so British Steel won't now have any patent licensing income.
Someone needs to look at how Tata has handled British Steel's R&D as it is possible for such conglomerates to load all the costs on one business sending it into loss but have the licensing revenue go elsewhere.
01-04-2016 2:05 PM
01-04-2016 5:32 PM
It costs a lot of money to keep a plant in running order - even if they are 'mothballed', they cannot just be shut down like you turn a car engine off when you no longer need it.
It's not just steel plants - this is a problem for any industry that operates with some kind of furnace or industry that is costly to get up and running from cold.
I used to know a couple who ran their own glass blowing works and the furnace had to be kept going day and night as that was more economical on fuel, saved having to wait literally hours for the furnace to heat up, and saved the furnace from excessive wear and tear from being constantly heated and cooled.
I'd also assume that the figure is partly made up of loss of income and the inability to pay any outstanding loans or interest.
It has also been mentioned that in allowing Tata to buy the steelworks in the first place, it has allowed the specialst knowlege on producing high quality steel to be exported to India so that country could well end up competing to sell back to this country in the future if we don't maintain our own capacity.
Another observation - the issue about the import of cheap lower grade steel from China could have been blocked within the EU, but hey - guess which nation vetoed the proposal?
There's a lot more to this going on behind the scenes than is apparent and I wouldn't trust this government as far as I could chuck an egg at them, and my throwing skills are pretty lousy these days.