"eBay may charge you a final value fee even if your item is not sold"

[ereiam-jh]

I just read the following in the T&Cs

Make sure that your message does not contain any contact information and that you do not request contact or other personal information; otherwise as a seller, eBay may charge you a final value fee even if your item is not sold.

Surely, they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on if any such charge was contested.

[papso22]

Why not?  You would have agreed to it when you listed the relevant item.

However, given that FVF for private sellers no longer exist it is unlikely that ebay would apply this charge. 

[*vyolla*]

I believe that guidance page needs some updating, that's really no longer relevant.

We've seen eBay charge sellers in the past (back when private sellers paid a final value fee) when they've been suspected of selling a collection item outside of eBay. All perfectly legit, it's in their terms and conditions that eBayer tick to say that they accept when they join eBay. 

Now that there's no longer cash on collection available, and orders need to be paid for via eBay checkout before buyers/sellers can exchange contact details, it's pretty much out of date.

[ereiam-jh]

---

@papso22 wrote:

Why not?  You would have agreed to it when you listed the relevant item.

---

Because the law doesn't usually work that way.  To ensure fairness and transparency, any such charge would need to have been brought to the seller's attention during the listing process, not hidden away in the terms and conditions.

[ereiam-jh]

---

@*vyolla* wrote:

I believe that guidance page needs some updating, that's really no longer relevant.

---

It's part of a "Terms and Privacy Notice" about ebay AI, so I would assume it has been written fairly recently.

I'm not doubting eBay would attempt to charge sellers if they suspected them of selling listed items outside of eBay. My point is that if the seller contested it, I don't believe eBay would have a legal leg to stand on. As stated above, any such charges would need to be brought to the seller's attention during the listing process, not hidden away in terms and conditions.

[papso22]

Sorry but that's not how contract law works.  It is perfectly legal to have contractual terms in a terms and conditions 'document' in other words,  the user agreement. 

Also, this was not a charge that would be imposed very often or on every listing.

It was introduced as a form of fine in very specific circumstances which were explained on the site.  These circumstances being when sellers broke other rules on ebay.

[jonatjonatjonat]

I'd also find it odd having to be informed at the point of listing a product to sell on ebay that I'd be charged a fee if I attempted to make the sale off ebay.

You are essentially telling them to not do something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

[ereiam-jh]

---

@papso22 wrote:

Sorry but that's not how contract law works.  It is perfectly legal to have contractual terms in a terms and conditions 'document' in other words,  the user agreement. 

---

This is about consumer law, not contract law.
Of course, it is perfectly legal to include these terms in the user agreement, but that doesn't make them automatically enforcable. My point is that if a seller received such a charge and they had the motivation to contest it in a court of law, eBay would not have a leg to stand on.

Perhaps they would in the US, but not in the UK or Europe.

[*vyolla*]

---

@ereiam-jh wrote:

---

---

It's part of a "Terms and Privacy Notice" about ebay AI, so I would assume it has been written fairly recently.

I'm not doubting eBay would attempt to charge sellers if they suspected them of selling listed items outside of eBay. My point is that if the seller contested it, I don't believe eBay would have a legal leg to stand on. As stated above, any such charges would need to be brought to the seller's attention during the listing process, not hidden away in terms and conditions.

---

Probably written by AI. 😀

It's fine to incorporate this info in the terms and conditions, if everything extra that needed to be bought to a sellers attention was added during the listing process if would be a software impossibility and listing an item would take a day or two! That's why all contracts have small print and people need to read it and understand what they're agreeing to. 

I have just though that there is a scenario in which that would still be applicable to a private seller - if they sold a vehicle via Buy It Now or Auction there are still final value fees and payment would be cash or bank transfer on collection and would require the seller to mark the transaction as paid. If they got paid and cancelled the order, but the buyer contacted eBay to let them know that they had the vehicle then that would be a can or worms. 

[ereiam-jh]

---

@*vyolla* wrote:

Probably written by AI. 😀

---

Most likely.

---

@*vyolla* wrote:

It's fine to incorporate this info in the terms and conditions, if everything extra that needed to be bought to a sellers attention was added during the listing process if would be a software impossibility and listing an item would take a day or two! That's why all contracts have small print and people need to read it and understand what they're agreeing to. 

I have just though that there is a scenario in which that would still be applicable to a private seller - if they sold a vehicle via Buy It Now or Auction there are still final value fees and payment would be cash or bank transfer on collection and would require the seller to mark the transaction as paid. If they got paid and cancelled the order, but the buyer contacted eBay to let them know that they had the vehicle then that would be a can or worms. 

---

This is not just "anything extra." This is effectively a fine for not abiding by their rules. If they want to be able to legally enforce it, they'd need to make absolutely sure that sellers are aware of it.

I'm not questioning that they *may* be able to enforce the charge if an offsite sale was demonstrably facilitated by the eBay listing. However, read what their statement actually says: "eBay may charge you a final value fee even if your item is not sold."  So even if an item remains unsold, both onsite and offsite, eBay are suggesting they may charge you a final value fee for merely messaging your contact details to a potential buyer. 

[*vyolla*]

Honestly, this is such a first world problem, we can go on forever discussing the small print, people's interpretations of it and where it should be sited. 

If you're signing up to a website and ticking to confirm that you've read the T&Cs, and then come unstuck because you hadn't really read them, then ignorance is no excuse.

Historically, in all the time I've been on eBay Community in its various guises, the only time I've seen sellers try and get away with paying fees for collection items is where the buyer paid cash on collection and the seller then cancels via the  'buyer asked to cancel' route, and the buyer has come to community to complain and reported them, then the fee is valid.

eBay then chases the fee for a short while and then passes it on to a debt collector. 

I've never known eBay to enforce it when it hasn't been warranted.

'even if your item is not sold' means that the buyer has bought and paid for their vehicle but the seller hasn't marked the transaction as sold. But it has sold.

[ereiam-jh]

---

@*vyolla* wrote:

Honestly, this is such a first world problem

---

And what? Should "first world problems" not be discussed? Are you attempting to shame me for bringing this up? This is a message board for eBay sellers to discuss matters related to selling on eBay. If such things are too trivial for your concern, why are you so prolific on here?

---

@*vyolla* wrote:

'even if your item is not sold' means that the buyer has bought and paid for their vehicle but the seller hasn't marked the transaction as sold. But it has sold.

---

That's not what it says. At all. You're simply attributing to it whatever meaning best fits your previous example.

If I'm being honest, this is not a problem I am ever likely to encounter. I was merely amused by the audacity of eBay implying that they'd be able to charge sellers for exchanging contact details with a potential buyer, regardless of whether the item was ultimately sold or not. As I said in the original post, the reality is that they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on.

[jonatjonatjonat]

As I said in the original post, the reality is that they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on.

I believe the saying is...

Why shouldn't ebay charge you for doing something that their terms and conditions?

If I park my car in a pay car park and pay using PaybyPhone - it tells me the terms and conditions are on a sign. if inadvertently park over two bays I can be issued a penalty - should PaybyPhone tell me this? I say this, because when you go to list, ebay make clear by clicking List it for free (for example) you accept the terms of their various agreements.

[ereiam-jh]

It's not "just my opinion". It's an opinion grounded by legal precedents.

Your analogy is not remotely equivalent to this scenario. Nevertheless, there have been countless instances of drivers having had their parking penalties dismissed by the courts due to the signage having been difficult to read (eg. it was covered in dirt.) 

[jonatjonatjonat]

Nevertheless, there have been countless instances of drivers having had their parking penalties dismissed by the courts due to the signage having been difficult to read (eg. it was covered in dirt.)

Changing the rules there....

[ereiam-jh]

What rules?
I was simply giving your analogy more dignity than it deserved. In truth, it has very little correlation to the subject at hand, so I'm a little unclear about what point you are trying to make.

[jonatjonatjonat]

I'm a little unclear about what point you are trying to make

i return this to you.
Your point was ebay should make clear ALL possible fees or fines during the listing process. It is - when a user lists they are confirming that they agree to all terms and conditions, which are possible for them to read.

My analogy is similar - when I pay to park a car, I am also agreeing to terms and conditions including possible fines for not parking in a box - in this case however, the terms and conditions are listed on a sign in the car park. But they aren't made clear to me during the payment process in the app - which is what you are asking ebay to do I believe.

[ereiam-jh]

The signage in a car park needs to be clear and concise. In most cases, they can be fully read and digested in less than a minute. In contrast, eBay's terms and conditions are pages and pages long, often difficult to locate, and frequently ambiguous. 

Nevertheless, the issue I am trying to highlight is not that eBay are saying they may charge you for analogously "parking over two bays" but rather that they may charge you driving into their car park but ultimately parking elsewhere. That is why your analogy bares so little relevance. No car park would charge you for not parking there.

[jonatjonatjonat]

I couldn’t care less how clear the car park sign is, it’s not in the PayByPhone app at the point of purchase.

eBay aren’t charging you for selling somewhere else. They are charging you for putting details on a message prior to the buyer making an eBay purchase to force the sale off eBay. THAT is what you are being fined for. It’s what it says in your original post.

[ereiam-jh]

No, what it says is that they may charge you for putting contact details in a message regardless of whether there is ultimately any sale or not.

What I am saying is that if they did inflict such a fine on a seller, they would stand no chance of being able to legally enforce it. You can disagree with that opinion if you choose but your car park analagy would certainly not stand up in a UK court where legal precedents would be fully in support of the seller.