'Simple Delivery' failed, now a test case - worried

[richardb196]

Private Seller here, I sold a gold sovereign for £590 on ebay and was forced to use "Simple Delivery" as you all know. Both ebay and RM tracking show it as delivered, RM say they left it in a safe place and uploaded a photo. Seller says package has gone "missing" and he will raise a case with ebay!

I see some help pages on ebay saying I am covered for the loss but another page says gold is in the excluded list for 'Simple Delivery' even though they do not offer any other postal service.

Who is going to end up eating the loss I wonder?

Cheers

Rich

[edwardian-dreams]

This is not an answer to your question but a general  comment

if An item is not covered by eBay and it’s contracted couriers they should NEVER allow it to be listed under simple delivery in the first place

ergo ebays programmers and developers should disallow the option of SD for all categories and items such as this

🙄

simples, in my mind 

[gjalp]

For that type of item and that kind of money, I would ignore the SD label and sort my own service. 

[edwardian-dreams]

Forgot to say if you were forced to use sd by eBay (provable probably ) then they should foot the bill as they should just for not having clear enough policies and directions 

[department28]

Yes, it would have been safer to not use the SD label, and send via Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed - although of course that is no comfort to you now, unfortunately.

Simple Delivery is not suitable for valuable items.

[edwardian-dreams]

Yes

the only way people can avoid this pitfall if to not use the label and await for its refund 

buts it’s up to EBAY to ensure sellers know if their item is covered or not in precise exact terms so that there is no confusion whatsoever in any universe 

I suggest op gets a call back from eBay for this issue 

someone must have the link for it

hang on this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/eua?id=5275&mkevt=1&mkpid

[suema_62]

I asked about 'signed for' under compulsory 'Simple Delivery' and was told it doesnt exist. The solution for expensive items was for me the seller to pay for 'signed for' and add the tracking number thereby not receiving payment for the shipping.

[lucy_farmer]

'if An item is not covered by eBay and it’s contracted couriers they should NEVER allow it to be listed under simple delivery in the first place'

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I think that's impossible.

When you read the 'restricted list' you'll see it's not just the obvious stuff .

It's items that just contain parts that may be breakable for instance...... there just way too many things that would have to be excluded from Simple Del. It would make Simple Del pretty pointless.

The answer to the OP's case will be very interesting.

[edwardian-dreams]

Indeed

ergo custom postage should be allowed to remain for anyone that needs to use if 

simples lol 

There’s no eBay policy that should disagree with this fact imo

if eBay say you’re covered unless…..then they should offer the option to go with  the unless bit if you see what I mean 

otherwise it’s pants 

[j.p.greenwood]

Whatever you do, do NOT have conversations with CS on the phone that can be disputed afterwards, you need to make sure every discussion is done in a way that is recorded in case this ends up going to court.

Also, right now, while it's fresh in your mind, do a contemporaneous note about exactly what happened so far and E-Mail it to yourself so there's a timed record of it.

[richardb196]

From ebays own pages -

"How is my item protected?

Items are protected against loss or damage from the moment they are scanned into the courier’s delivery network until they are marked as delivered by the courier. There’s also no need to call the courier or customer support. In the event that a buyer raises a claim for an issue that occurs during transit, you won’t be held responsible. Even fragile items are protected when you follow our packaging guidance.

There’s no cover limit for eligible items with Simple Delivery. They’re fully protected for the amount they were sold for on eBay providing you post the item using the prepaid Simple Delivery label provided, comply with the eBay delivery Terms and Conditions, and properly package the item. "

So far so good, now looking at eligible items -

"5. Eligibility. 

a) Item Eligibility.

Not all listings on eBay.co.uk are eligible for the Services. eBay will determine which items are eligible for the Services. eBay reserves the right at any time, in its sole discretion, with or without notice to you, to alter or amend the eligibility requirements for the Services, including, but not limited to, limits on the number, type, category, and/or value of items and/or transactions"

So my coin might be covered or it might not.

Goodnight!

[lucy_farmer]

'There’s no cover limit for eligible items with Simple Delivery. They’re fully protected for the amount they were sold for on eBay providing you post the item using the prepaid Simple Delivery label provided, comply with the eBay delivery Terms and Conditions, and properly package the item. " '

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Ah... this sounds a little different to me.

Up until now I have only seen the phrase  'comply with Simple Delivery terms and the carriers' terms ' .

Those 'carriers terms' included the restricted/exclusion list.

*And* we had one definitive answer from ebay staff member kat@ebay that items on the exclusion list were excluded from Simple Del. (but there was an awful lot of confusion and unsure answers about S.D. at the time. It is possible the 'right' answer has changed!)

We need @valueaddedresource  to have a look at the terms with the 'way back machine' to see if there has been a change of idea about what is and isn't covered under S.D.

[thesmokingrunner]

People seem to be missing something quite important here...

eBay's own pages state "Items are protected against loss or damage from the moment they are scanned into the courier’s delivery network until they are marked as delivered by the courier." 

Great. An item is covered for its entire journey. But in his initial post @richardb196  wrote "RM tracking show it as delivered" and that's pertinent: the item was marked as delivered, therefore the SD guarantee no longer applies as it states "until ... marked as delivered "

Depending on just how well versed they are at playing the system the buyer may now open an INR case (which they will lose as the item was delivered), a NAD case (and send back any old rubbish - eBay's automatic refunds are based on the shipping label being registered as delivered, not the contents) or open a case with their payment provider (which the seller is going to find difficult to win).

Personally I'd say it's not looking too good, richardb196. But I'd also say the item very probably didn't go "missing" either. Funny, but it always seems to be the expensive items which go missing...

eBay is set up in such a way that someone can shell out £600 on a coin then claim it was missing in order to get a refund and ultimately end up with a free coin. Be honest - who hasn't been tempted to try it? Really?

[dancewithadingo]

Good Morning

I was sorry to read about your loss,but it was bound to happen sooner or later, ie the sale of high value, desirable and transportable  items. I would do as you are no doubt doing and pursue eBay. I am sure that eventually they will make good your loss.

Glad to see that you are sending your current sale by RM with all of the cover included.  Although you have been on eBay for some time you are still a scammers target. I am inclined to disbelieve your buyer. At some stage why not tell him that you have reported the so called theft to RM and their Special Investigations Team who will be in touch with him shortly to arrange a visit and take a statement.  His reaction should tell you something and determine how to proceed.  Additionally the coin may suddenly turn up.

Good luck

Just one final point as a coin when packaged is still a very small item why couldn't it have been put through a letter box?

This response is directed at the original/opening poster. 

[*vyolla*]

@richardb196 Well, this is going to put all of those SD terms and conditions to the test.

I feel that eBay will wriggle out of refunding the buyer if they open an eBay claim because the item was delivered and then the loss occurred. The claim should be found in your favour. 

If your buyer then goes to their card provider and issues a not received chargeback, they'd get a full refund and you'd be covered by eBay Seller Protection, eBay would have to fork out for the refund.

I've also got the same question as @dancewithadingo  - why didn't the package simply fit through a letter box?

Can you please keep us updated here?

[vinylscot]

If OP would upload the RM photo  in a comment here, it would help those trying to assist.

e.g., as above, why was it not posted through the letterbox?; where/what was this "safe place" where the package was left?; Does OP know if the buyer had agreed to have packages left in a safe place?

I suspect OP may well be OK with eBay, as this has happened so early into SD, and they certainly won't want such a precedent sent. However, eBay's position is bound to change later if a huge number of similar claims appear, and it becomes obvious that someone isn't telling the truth.

There is enough ambiguity in SD's Ts and Cs to allow eBay to do a complete about turn on many issues, while not technically changing any of these Ts and Cs - just interpreting them differently. There is actually far too much ambiguity in there, and these Ts and Cs really need to be clarified and tightened. It's not practical for eBay just to cross their fingers and hope, knowing that they can easily cover themselves just by interpreting a rule differently.

[lucy_farmer]

'e.g., as above, why was it not posted through the letterbox?; where/what was this "safe place" where the package was left?; Does OP know if the buyer had agreed to have packages left in a safe place?'

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This is why SPECIAL delivery really has to be an option on S.D.

Special delivery items are not allowed to be left in a 'safe' place, or simply put through the letterbox.

They have to be signed for or photgraphed, handed over, name /time checked etc.

(This is why Special is expensive. But for something like a gold coin, it's worth every penny)

Either ebay are setting themselves up to be ripped for expensive parcels 'disappearing' (if they do take responsibility, as they say they will) or setting sellers up to be ripped when they don't  take responsibility (after leaving the seller no choice of which service to use under S.D.....)

[vinylscot]

But that's part of what makes the concept of SD so appealing. eBay has worked out that it can cope with the size of losses arising form items which would previously have been sent by Special Delivery. They have come to the conclusion that they can do so for items valued up to £750.00.

Part of their reasoning will be that these items are now far less conspicuous under Simple Delivery, as they were under Special Delivery, so should not be such obvious targets for thieves, etc.

It's perfectly natural for a seller and/or buyer, to focus in on one individual package, but it's similar to the weights issue. In the grand scheme of things, one £600 item means nothing. It would only be if there were far more of these items than eBay anticipated that they would consider it an issue. I suspect this is an area which may yet have some "tweaks".

[theelench]

I noticed yesterday that my item has been  changed to SD by ebay.  It's now RM Tracked at £7.95.

However, it's a rare glass table lamp that I priced at £749, increased by ebay with BPF to £771.

With every other piece of glass I've taken to the local Post Office I've been warned that it isn't covered for any compensation.

I simply don't believe that ebay would compensate me for any damage in transit, logged into their system or not.

[lucy_farmer]

'I simply don't believe that ebay would compensate me for any damage in transit, logged into their system or not.'

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I have difficulty believing that as well.

Mostly because packaging is basically the only thing that can now be seen as solely the seller's responsibility.

Therefore easy to blame.

(Many years ago I sent a [non-ebay] parcel that got damaged in the post; when I got it back there were tyre marks on it. On trying to claim compensation for it, I was informed it was 'inadequately packaged'......... what did they want it to be packed in? A nuclear flask?!!)