Sellers beware of a return scam - changing delivery address on returns label

[fos1133]

We have had two buyers try to scam us recently using eBay returns. It appears that they open a return as normal on eBay and obtain their Royal Mail Tracked Returns label. However, the item is returned to a different address delivered by the same Royal Mail delivery office, so it appears that it has been delivered and eBay will accept it as delivered. Both times that this happened I know that the address was somehow changed on the returns label as I know where it was delivered to and it was not us, although I do not know what was actually returned as I didn't see the parcel (it could be an empty box - the first time it happened I was told it weighed 200g when the item should have been around 8kg). Both times I contacted eBay customer support and after investigating the buyer, they closed their accounts as there must have been a pattern of similar behaviour.

[bilhus-37]

Hi 

that's what I thought they was changing the address on the label however if they change the address on the label by editing it how do they manage to change it on royal mails data base as when the parcel was coming back to me I already knew as the parcel was still scanned in at the Royal Mail depot so they have tried to return a parcel that hasn't been delivered yet that's how I rumbled them when speaking with Royal Mail they said the address on the system doesn't match mine surely if they are edited the label the address on royal mails system would have still showed our address not the different one that's why I think it has to be some one inside Royal Mail changing the actual address on the system if that makes sense 

[bmann-2000]

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As stated earlier in the thread, the scammer edits the human readable address, while the barcode still points to the intended address, the sellers house.

The postie cannot read barcode, so delivers the item to the human readable address. The GPS tracking coordinates point to the human readable address because that's where the postie delivered it.  eBay can see the Royal Mail tracking GPS coordinates do not match the address on the eBay generated return label, therefore eBay then know the scammer has edited the address on the label.

At that point the scammer has already received the refund and has effectively stolen the sellers goods.  It seems eBay then take the hit and refund the seller. If eBay are lucky they might be able to charge the payment card the scammer had used.  I wonder if eBay then recover their losses from Royal Mail by pointing out that Royal Mail failed to check the barcode against the text.

The strange bit is, when you call eBay on the phone and ask about the scam and how it all works, the customer service employees seem to be oblivious about what is happening and think maybe the scammer is telling the truth.  Although I did get some CS people who did understand it and were able to help.  I am now interested to know if the seller can select a non-RoyalMail courier when authorisimg the return, as suggested earlier in this thread.

[fos1133]

I asked one of the posties and they said that they can see the original address on their device when scanning the parcel for delivery, but I guess they don't notice as they have no reason to suspect foul play. I would love to have seen one of the parcels that was actually returned to see what was in it - maybe promotional junk mail so that the recipient doesn't notice that it was not intended for them?

[fos1133]

Sure the accepting post office should be checking that the address on the label matches the address that should be on the label, presuming they have access to Royal Mail's data...

[bmann-2000]

Royal Mail have no interest in detecting eBay scams.  The best option would be for eBay to stop using Royal Mail for returns, other couriers who rely only on the barcode would not be suseptible in the same way.  Sellers would instead get the scam return, so sellers please remeber to video the opening to all returns to avoid disputes. 

Don't worry though, the eBay seller guarentee is there to protect you.  Although I must say, eBay make you do a lot of work to get your money back, and they make no apologies for allowing the scammers to scam you via their platform.

[4_bathrooms]

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@bmann-2000 wrote:
I am now interested to know if the seller can select a non-RoyalMail courier when authorisimg the return, as suggested earlier in this thread.

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Business sellers can prevent eBay automatically sending a return label for INAD returns by enabling the "RMA number" option on this page - I'm not sure if that page is available to private sellers.

Enabling that option doesn't remove the seller's obligation to provide a return label in such cases but it does allow the seller to provide a return label of their choosing including a return label purchased outside eBay.  

[bmann-2000]

The "RMA Number" option is available to private sellers and I have just enabled it thanks to your advice and handy link.

[4_bathrooms]

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@fos1133 wrote:

Sure the accepting post office should be checking that the address on the label matches the address that should be on the label, presuming they have access to Royal Mail's data...

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The postmaster will ask you to put it on the scales to check the declared weight, will often ask you what you are sending (to check it isn't a prohibited item) but once they scan it to accept it they never seem to check if the address matches anything. At least, my local PO doesn't seem to.

In any case a scammer could avoid the Post Office altogether by using a letterbox or parcel letterbox. Whilst they won't receive an acceptance scan if they do this they will receive a delivery scan which is all they need. 

[faz4942]

Hi 

just a quick update guys so the case got closed in our favour now 3 weeks later they have opened a dispute with thier payment institution where I have to accept or challenge the dispute we are going to challenge it any tips would be appreciated as they have the device and now trying to claim the money back through PayPal as item not as described I have a letter from Royal Mail confirming the return was not sent back to us any advice would be appreciated 

[bilhus-37]

Hi 

just a quick update guys so the case got closed in our favour now 3 weeks later they have opened a dispute with thier payment institution where I have to accept or challenge the dispute we are going to challenge it any tips would be appreciated as they have the device and now trying to claim the money back through PayPal as item not as described I have a letter from Royal Mail confirming the return was not sent back to us any advice would be appreciated

[fos1133]

So, first they claim they returned the item and now they claim they still have it and it is not as described? If this is the case, eBay should simply close their account and cover your payment as it is clearly fraudulent behaviour.

[bilhus-37]

Hi yes that is correct so they claim to have returned the device which they haven't eBay has already closed their account down however they have now opened a dispute with their payment institution as item not as described so do you think it's best to dispute this and send all the information I have the proof of postage which shows my weight of the item and thier proof of postage which shows a different weight I also have screen shots of the times when the return was sent however when they posted it back apparently it was scanned in at royal mails depot 2 hours later and I also have a letter confirming from Royal Mail confirming the return that was sent to me was sent to a different address not mine just concerned as PayPal always take the buyers side but I have so much evidence to prove that the buyer is lying should I disclose all this in the dispute 

[fos1133]

Have you spoken to eBay customer service about it? As eBay manage payments they should be able to protect you regardless of what PayPal decides.

[bilhus-37]

Hi

Yes we have spoken to eBay who have said that I need to dispute it and see what the out come is it's just really stressful as we have had item not described cases before and they always side with buyer the payment institution it's sad we have 100 percent feedback and a top rated seller it's making me think is it worth it to stay on eBay we can't afford to lose £1350 with out any protection from eBay it's a win win for the scammers and hard working sellers like us just lose out 

[4_bathrooms]

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@faz4942 wrote:

just a quick update guys so the case got closed in our favour now 3 weeks later they have opened a dispute with thier payment institution where I have to accept or challenge the dispute we are going to challenge it

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What reason was the original eBay case opened for and what reason was the chargeback filed for?

If both were opened for the same reason (i.e. "item not as described") and eBay closed the original MBG case in your favour then you should be protected:

"An eBay Money Back Guarantee case of the same type for the same transaction that was already resolved with:

• eBay determining that the seller met their obligations to the buyer, or
• eBay issuing a full refund to the buyer"

However, the wording of that bullet point has recently been changed. It used to state if a money back guarantee case had been decided in the seller's favour (or words to that effect).

If the chargeback has been filed for "item not received", "transaction not recognised" or "transaction not authorised" you only need the original tracking confirming the buyer received the item.

[bilhus-37]

Hi so they opened up a return with eBay which got closed on my favour as they sent the item back before getting delivered and the dispute is an item not as described we have put our case forward with all the tracking info letter from Royal Mail confirming return wasn't sent back to us etc and it says we are protected by seller protection and they won't be deducting any funds from us and they will close this once they hear back so I m right to think that eBay have me covered even if pay pal find in the buyers favour as it says I am protected with seller protection?

[bmann-2000]

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It's stressful when your thinking the scammer will successfully steal your goods.  In general, the other parties will avoid making any assumptions based on the respresentions of the seller or the buyer, it's evidence based.  If you have evidence the goods were delivered to the correct address. And you also have evidence that any return was not to your address, you will be fine by the time it's all done.

eBay look to see if you have fulfilled all your seller responsibilities.  Dispatch on time, upload tracking, deal promptly with return request email etc.

One thing I've learned from this is that the scammer will often leave negative feedback.  If you reply to the negative feedback, eBay will refuse to delete it.  Do not reply, instead request a call from eBay and ask them to delete the negative feedback.

[Anonymous]

how can they open a "item not as described" If they claim they sent it back?

[fos1133]

I presume that they couldn't on eBay, but maybe on PayPal...

[4_bathrooms]

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@bilhus-37 wrote:

Hi so they opened up a return with eBay which got closed on my favour as they sent the item back before getting delivered

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What reason did the buyer select for the original eBay return; the one eBay closed in your favour? Was it an "item not as described" return (i.e. you were charged for the return shipping label)?

It sounds like there's more to this than I thought. Are you saying the buyer never received the item; i.e. the original tracking from Royal Mail never indicated delivery to the buyer?