HMRC data sharing

[charliestell]

Can someone confirm when they have stated "starting January 1st 2024" they will being to share all data with HMRC does that mean that all sales starting from Jan 1st 2024 will be shared in the new format? I know historically that they have shared data but is this new rule in relation to all sales from 1st Jan 24 or everything historically?

I'm not a master criminal or a huge fraudster I literally sell £200 - £300 a month on here so think I may be over this limit and fear a taxman letter. 

[*vyolla*]

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@555njp wrote:

Makes sense as they may need to tie multiple accounts to one tax payer.

I hope they can differentiate between genuine private sellers though. They do a lot of the buying on here and if we lose them it's curtains for everyone.

Not like there is an excess of buyers anymore (or smaller sellers for that matter).

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Yes, not sure that I really want to put this to the test, to be honest. 

[555njp]

Yes, anyone can spot the low hanging fruit - private accounts with hundreds of new items in multiples for sale and thousands of feedbacks. Unlikely I know, but those people could just be cheating the public out of their legal rights whilst still declaring their income to HMRC (yeah right!).
But what about those selling hundreds of one-off used items?

These could be collections, items from a deceased estate (that's how I first started on here), legitimate family items (kids, parents and in-laws all passing their unwanted goods to one account), a massive declutter, or again illegal traders who have purchased from charity shops or car boots etc. to sell on? It will take quite a bit of resource to unravel those.

Then you have the correctly registered business accounts.................but are they actually declaring their income? At least that one should be easily reconciled with a self assessment, especially if they have a NI No.

HMRC did set up a team years ago to look at tax opportunities from online trading but it was axed fairly quickly. Presumably as the revenue collected didn't cover the cost of the extra inspectors?

I was initially pleased when I saw the announcement, however I'm not sure it'll actually do any good now.

[litp*records]

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@montypuss2014 wrote:

Does anyone know if they are reporting on the 'final figure' or the amt received?  As they included postage when the deduct their fees.THANKS

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Everything you receive, the order total, is counted as your income.

When you go and pay for postage labels, that's an expense.

If I were a private seller, I would be keeping all my receipts just in case HMRC decide you are liable to register for self-assessment, you'd be able to remit postage and any other reasonable purchases for the tax year as business expenses.

*edit,: ebay fees of course can also be deducted as expenses

[litp*records]

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@555njp wrote:

Yes, anyone can spot the low hanging fruit - private accounts with hundreds of new items in multiples for sale and thousands of feedbacks. Unlikely I know, but those people could just be cheating the public out of their legal rights whilst still declaring their income to HMRC (yeah right!).
But what about those selling hundreds of one-off used items?

These could be collections, items from a deceased estate (that's how I first started on here), legitimate family items (kids, parents and in-laws all passing their unwanted goods to one account), a massive declutter, or again illegal traders who have purchased from charity shops or car boots etc. to sell on? It will take quite a bit of resource to unravel those.

Then you have the correctly registered business accounts.................but are they actually declaring their income? At least that one should be easily reconciled with a self assessment, especially if they have a NI No.

HMRC did set up a team years ago to look at tax opportunities from online trading but it was axed fairly quickly. Presumably as the revenue collected didn't cover the cost of the extra inspectors?

I was initially pleased when I saw the announcement, however I'm not sure it'll actually do any good now.

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It'll be really easy to spot anyone who is making a lot of sales and purchases online especially if it's all on the same account.

But it's near impossible to determine if someone bought something to resell or for the "joy of ownership" especially if there is a lot of time between the purchase and the sale.  It is hard to prove what your intentions are, unless for example you boasted all over the internet about all the stuff you've bought to "flip" (yes I know of people who do this!)

[mrwhood66]

Yes that's right 

[kevinc3867]

So according to EBAY, they will pass your NI number over to HMRC when you cross the threshold of 30 sales or more over a calendar year or exceed 2000 Euros / 1,700 GBP over a calendar year.

If I'm right, there ARE restrictions whether your a Private / Trade Account seller or not but limiting you to 30 sales in 1 calendar year. (Which would be diabolical).

#confused.com🤨

[tommystrezures]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/account/regulatory/uk-digital-sales-reporting?id=5454&st=3&pos=6&query=U...

Its all detailed here.

@kevinc3867 

[prescott9376]

This is already happening on one Collectors site I Use.

In order to sell to the US. They have passed a law called DACs7 which requires sellers who sell to the US to include their Tax Identification Number Number, Our TIN is our National Insurance Number.

I have refused to give a foreign government access to my tax details, especially  the US, so cant sell to the US on that site.

It Doesn't really matter to me as I dont post to America anyway because of their poor / delayed postal service. But I would Expect Ebay & others to follow suit to comply with US law.

Given the amount of info these sites already hold on us I think our NI numbers would be a bit too much.

[the_book_seekers]

Reading the ebay blurb I can see that a number of sellers will not want to provide ebay with their national insurance numbers - so many did not want to provide ID information for managed payments. ebay will ask sellers to add their national insurance number or (for business sellers) UTR number to their accounts - failure to do so may (will) lead to selling restrictions. 

[555njp]

I agree. I think eBay will lose loads more sellers to this and it'll be the small cottage industry sellers and private sellers clearing out their secondhand stuff that makes eBay unique.

So many are already disgruntled with poor results on here, this'll be the final straw. So rather than getting properly registered, they'll just leave.

Probably explains why 80% of my competition for certain product lines has disappeared in the last few months, and also why our wholesaler appears to have far too much stock still left to clear this year!

Those lines are particularly suited to eBay and wouldn't work at car boots/markets or any other platform.

You'd think that'd be great news (getting the illegal competition off the site) but our sales most certainly have NOT increased (yet) which suggests the buyers have gone too.

Of course, this won't really kick in until Spring when people start hitting the thresholds as a majority of questionable sellers probably have no idea this is coming...!

[kevinc3867]

Thanks for your reply - but I just don't get the reason for the "30 Sales or More" that has been mentioned by HMRC.?

Are Private sellers only really allowed to sell no more than 30 items in 1 calendar year before it has to be declared to HMRC.? 

Thanks!⭐️

[tommystrezures]

it's the oecd that have made the decision and the uk which is signed up to the agreement along with 30+ other countries then use their relevant tax authorities in our case hmrc. This issue is not just affecting the uk but the other signed up members eg germany etc.

Nothing has changed with exception to the reporting methods too ALL sales platforms not just eBay, and other areas such as Airbnb 

[kevinc3867]

Right - so as a Private seller in the UK we can still sell as much as we want without fear of being shafted by HMRC - and we can ignore the 30+ sales per year / tax as mentioned by HMRC.

Thanks⭐️

[rainbowtrax]

The private seller doesn't have to declare it to HMRC when they hit 30 sales. That's just the threshold at which ebay are legally required to share the details with HMRC. They do that but you don't have to. If HMRC think there is tax due then they'll be in touch but just because you've sold more than 30 items they won't necessarily think that and, in most cases, they'll be genuine private sales and there won't be tax due.

[tommystrezures]

@kevinc3867 

Your question has been answered clearly in post 3 and in post 11 by @*vyolla*  so I am not going to repeat the answer again.

If you are selling unwanted goods around the house you can sell as many as you want, as a private seller on ebay. YOu have nothing to worry about. If you are buying to sell on eg a trader then you can sell as many as you want, once again but you would obviously need to keep receipts to declare along with income on your yearly tax bill if you are self declaring for example. But in both examples above if you go over the 30 items sold threshold then yes ebay will ask for further details as they now have to submit this data to HMRC.

Further reading on this can be found on the OECD website - Look under the exchange of information area, a useful 39 page document. The bbc last week had a good but brief article also the Scrutton Bland site has a brief overview.

If you have further concerns then you should be talking to an accountant or tax advisor.

We are not either of them, just buyers and sellers like yourself.

[555njp]

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@kevinc3867 wrote:

Right - so as a Private seller in the UK we can still sell as much as we want without fear of being shafted by HMRC - and we can ignore the 30+ sales per year / tax as mentioned by HMRC.

Thanks⭐️

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Providing the things being sold are genuinely just decluttering and not items purchased to sell on then yes, you'll be fine. HMRC are specifically looking for those making money from things they've bought (or made) to sell for a profit which constitutes running a business. In this case there may/may not be a tax liability and that's what they are interested in.

I think for most private sellers, 30 sales a year is far too low a threshold alone and suspect in reality HMRC won't bother investigating further unless there are multiples of the same thing (particularly new items) or the sales revenue is relatively high, so both thresholds are exceeded.

How on earth they are going to prove someone is selling second hand items for profit though is beyond me. I guess it'll boil down to what constitutes a reasonable amount of belongings for an average family to get rid of in a year?
I would think 200-300 but that could be way off, especially for collectors.

[kevinc3867]

Great - Thanks for clarifying this for me!👍

[kevinc3867]

Great- Thanks! 👍

[liha_3211]

THEY HAVE 24 PEOPLE TO DO ALL THIS DIGGING THEY ARE GIVING BOTTOM OF LADER TYPES MINIMUM WAGE A JOB LIKE EVEY THING THE TORIES TOUCH STARTS BROKEN STAYS BROKEN 

[papso22]

Given that you would be a potential target I would keep below the parapet rather than insulting HMRC on a public platform. 

They will very likely also have employees with eBay accounts who come to these boards.  If I was them I would be making a note of your account.