Ebay "buyer protection" targetting charity sales through their own scheme

[robinson_flyer]

Like many, I'm really unhappy at ebay's new tax on buyers masquerading as "buyer protection" - but what really angers me is it is so badly thought through, it even hits ebay charity sales. 

I assemble an item, and sell and donate most of the proceeds (less costs) of the completed item through the ebay charity scheme to a charity, and the buyers for the item I sell are now paying nearly a quid extra.   This charge doesn't benefit my buyers because they already had "buyer protection", it doesn't benefit me (because I still can't tolerate the extra costs/effort/inconvenience of tracked on a low value postable item and I'm not getting a share of the extra tax), and it doesn't benefit the charity because sales are potentially reduced OR I am forced to reduce their percentage and build this tax in.  

I've been on the platform over 20 years so I have seen some poor judgement by ebay, but it just seems they are gettting worse and are completely out of touch with the customers who made the platform what it originally was. 

[tressygirl]

Many unhappy peeps about this big change,  but seems those in eBay Towers are tweaking and changing this  new Buyer Protection Fee regularly, a new update made today, see here:

 

https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Announcements/Introducing-new-carrier-preferences-for-Simple-Deliver...

 

Join in the many discussions on this subject on this forum,  some are quite lively!

 

@robinson_flyer

[*vyolla*]

There is a workaround here: You're trading on the wrong kind of eBay account, if you were trading on an eBay business account then your items wouldn't be subject to eBay's Buyer Protection Fee.

You can still make charity donations, nothing changes there.

A private seller is one who is just selling off their own personal items such as clothes from their wardrobe, bits from their loft/garage etc. They wouldn't have multiples of brand new items to list, for example you have sold 1, 962 paste syringes.

A Business seller is someone who buys or makes items to sell on.  They need to be registered as a business to meet the requirements of UK law. They need to declare income to HMRC once they reach £1,000 worth of sales (eBay will be providing HMRC with your details anyway so it's vital to keep correct accounts for your tax return). You can obviously offset more expenses as a business seller, but can't offset any at all as a private one.  

To correctly register as a business seller simply go to your Personal Information in your account and to the right of Account Type, which will be showing as 'Individual'  you'll see an Edit option.

https://accountsettings.ebay.co.uk/profile

This doesn't affect your feedback profile or any current listings, it merely upgrades your account so that you're compliant with current consumer and eBay policy.

If you're also selling your own items, just open another eBay account (you can have more than one).

[robinson_flyer]

@*vyolla*   An interesting viewpoint, but HMRC defines business activity as "carrying on a trade or profession, or buying and selling goods or services with a view to making a profit or surplus". 

As I operate within ebay's charity scheme, the "profit" is automatically removed at the point of sale by the ebay platform, and there is no surplus because I cost recover on the materials and keep records to prove it should anyone challenge me.  As can be seen from a quick bit of maths, 70% donation on a fiver means I'm not even covering the effort I spend doing this (so there is no genuine profit anyway) - but it beats standing on a street corner rattling a tin which tends to be rather less productive for the time spent, and I happen to think that donation that gives something back in return is the most effective type. 

Here's an analogy of what I do.   Consider a group of ladies from the WI buying ingredients and donating their time to bake some lovely cakes, which they then sell every week for charity (having deducted the ingredient costs so they are not out of pocket).  They would be a business according to the definition you put forward and I'm not sure many people would agree. 

So if I am demonstrably a private individual, and HMRC would agree, then it would surely be misleading to pretend to be a business on ebay?   

[robinson_flyer]

@tressygirl  I have joined in here and there and you're right, it is rather lively - but this was a specific point I wanted to make that ebay are harming their own charity scheme which private sellers like me also use, which just shows how little thought went into it.   I didn't want that point lost in a thread twenty pages long 😀

[thesmi42]

I understand the point you are making about 'cake sales' for charity, but even that is not quite as straightforward as it may seem...

https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/providing-food-at-community-and-charity-events 

[robinson_flyer]

Maybe not the best of examples then 😀

[papso22]

It's not HMRC's definition of a business that matters here, it's consumer law.  If you assemble (make) items to sell, then you have to have an ebay business account to do that legally.  Profit doesn't come into it, neither does tax.

[*vyolla*]

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@robinson_flyer wrote:

So if I am demonstrably a private individual, and HMRC would agree, then it would surely be misleading to pretend to be a business on ebay?   

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I can't see how it would be misleading, but if you've run this by HMRC and they have agreed with you then there really isn't a way forward here except perhaps to drop your prices to accommodate the 4% + 75p Buyer Protection fee, which is then unfortunately going to impact the amount both you and the charity receive.

[robinson_flyer]

@papso22     I think HMRC view does matter here because the are only three main/common legal structures for businesses in the UK, and we can easily rule out two of them in my case which is limited company and partnership.   That only leaves "sole trader" and what I do doesn't fall under that legal definition either.  

Ebay's business seller position centres around consumer law as you correctly state.   The Consumer Rights act mostly uses the term "trader" and that has definition in statute as "a person acting for purposes relating to that person's trade, business, craft or profession".    What I do is not my trade (that is something else entirely), it is not run as a business concern, nor is it my craft or profession.

If I'm not a "trader" or a "business" in any of the legal/common definitions, then I don't see an issue - and certainly not one of unlawful activity. Though for the record, I think even private sellers should operate in the spirit of the  Consumer Rights Act because some aspects of it are about general fairness.  So what I sell is fit for purpose, of merchantable quality, accurately described - because buyers have a right to expect that from every single seller on the platform. 

The elephant in the corner of the room is of course all those private sellers who are in fact both "businesses" AND "traders" according to the definitions and should therefore be registered as sole traders with HMRC  (because they are making money/profit above the normal activity of a private individual) and be registered as businesses on ebay so they pay the correct rate, and they should be complying in full with Consumer Law.  I'm with you on that. 

[robinson_flyer]

Misleading in the sense that some buyers might be more inclined to buy from a business than a private seller.  They might also believe they have full rights under the Consumer Rights Act - but I am not a business/trader in the legal sense,  so those rights are not enforceable in law. 

[papso22]

Sorry but with almost 2,000 new paste syringes sold, you are most definitely a business according to consumer law and Ebay's own policies.

You either make them or buy them, to sell.  That requires an ebay business account.

[robinson_flyer]

You stated in your post "have to have an ebay business account to do that legally".  i.e. you are claiming I am acting contrary to UK law and you have done so in an open forum.  I have taken the time to dig out the relevant statute and explain why I think your position is incorrect, so the least I expect in return is some evidence from you to back up your claim given you are evidently standing by what you have said.  So where is it? 

ebay's own policies and T&Cs are only enforceable if they are fair and reasonable and there is statute to help deal with companies who try to impose unfair terms and conditions on UK customers.   Forcing me to register myself as a business when I can demonstrate I am not, and ebay can actually see for themselves that I am not, would leave them open to legal challenge  esp. if their motives are purely financial.