Buyer going through PayPal for a refund.

[woodburningwonders]

I've sold an item on the 22nd of December, they asked for quick postage in the hopes to get it delivered before Christmas. I've obliged, but unfortunately it arrived after Christmas. Here where the problem lies... It arrived on the 27th Dec at an Argos/Sainsbury's collection point and the customer hasn't picked it up in time, about 15 days later she goes to pick it up and is surprised to learn it's not there. After messaging me repeatedly to try and get me to make and send another out, she contacts eBay. She claims she's accidentally closed the case, and now has to go through PayPal to get her money back and that were "both" going to be out of pocket. I've done everything right, provided tracking numbers, delivered on time, gone out of my way to get it posted. Can she get her money back this way? I already take a slight loss on my work as it's handmade personalised wooden art. Any advice please 

[papso22]

I suggest you read this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/selling-policies/payment-dispute-seller-protections?id=5293&st=...

[lucy_farmer]

Have you got proof of delivery to Argos/Sainsburys?

I know that on ebay it seems that the item is not considered delivered until it gets to the actual buyer (there was a fairly recent thread about this with an answer by 'Marco'- actual ebay employee! stating this). but she won't be going through ebay....

With PayPal, the proof pof delivery to Argo/Sains. may be enough.

I don't quite understand how the buyer thinks you will *both* be out of pocket over this? 

I take it you've not had your item returned by Argos/Sains?

[moldosgifts]

Have you another account were this was sold?

I ask as i wanted to take a look at your work i collect wooden triene.

But you have nothing on this account as a side note if this is your selling account your are missing your seller detail that you must display as a business. 

[the_repair_man]

It is so long ago since i had a paypal case opened against me, but im sure you can enter the tracking details to prove delivery just as you would do with ebay, in which case if and when she opens a case via paypal, you should be able to do this and win case.I advise you check paypal account daily so you can react, so you dont run out of time and then they close case against you.

[woodburningwonders]

Yes I have proof of delivery, but have had nothing returned to me. I had a business card with my details inside the package and brought a label through eBay, so presume return details will be on there. Well she seems to think eBay will refund her, and I wont be paid... I'm not entirely sure. 

[papso22]

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@the_repair_man wrote:

It is so long ago since i had a paypal case opened against me, but im sure you can enter the tracking details to prove delivery just as you would do with ebay, in which case if and when she opens a case via paypal, you should be able to do this and win case.I advise you check paypal account daily so you can react, so you dont run out of time and then they close case against you.

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The fact that it is a Paypal payment dispute does not mean it will be reflected in any Paypal account the seller may have.

Payment disputes are against ebay, not the seller.

[woodburningwonders]

I presumed I was logged into the right account... But I don't think I am! It's woodburning_wonders still. I don't have a business account as I'm not a business, I just do this as a hobby. 

[jonat_broad]

Sorry - you make things to sell. Its a business.

As per ebay...

Do I need a business account?

If you plan to sell casually, such as selling items you no longer want, a private account is the best option. 

If you want to sell large quantities, if you have items that you've made or bought to resell or if you already have a business outside of eBay, you’ll need to register a business account.

[*vyolla*]

Has your buyer opened a PayPal item not received claim or have they issued a not received chargeback via their card provider (it will route through PayPal but you should be able to spot the difference).

It's vital to know what kind of claim this is first.

Your buyer had 30 days from payment to open a PayPal claim, so this may be a chargeback. 

[lucy_farmer]

Yep.....  OP should win 'item not received' if it's a chargeback, as they do have proof of delivery.

[*vyolla*]

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@lucy_farmer wrote:

Yep.....  OP should win 'item not received' if it's a chargeback, as they do have proof of delivery.

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Probably not, I'd win a chargeback in those circumstances on any of my cards.

They may win a PayPal dispute though.

[lucy_farmer]

 oooh..... I thought it was INAD that were impossible with chargeback, not t'other!

Do these possibilities change with different cards?

[*vyolla*]

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@lucy_farmer wrote:

 oooh..... I thought it was INAD that were impossible with chargeback, not t'other!

Do these possibilities change with different cards?

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Well, in this instance, the buyer can prove that they haven't received their item. It may be their own fault, but that's not a consideration.

Different card providers may have slightly different hoops to jump through, it'll be in the terms and conditions.  

[hugothecockapoo]

Yep.....  OP should win 'item not received' if it's a chargeback, as they do have proof of delivery.

Or Loose  a  lot more if selling account uploaded by ebay to HMRC?  Fingers crossed OP has updated tax return to reflect income received by online selling..

[sml192]

It is still 180 days for an 'Item not received' claim with PayPal.  

It doesn't really matter whether it's a PayPal claim or a chargeback with the buyer's card issuer they are both classed as a payment dispute and are, therefore, dealt with in the same way. 

Unfortunately, based on the guidance provided by eBay it would appear that proof of delivery to the collection point on its own may not be sufficient evidence to challenge the dispute and that for seller protection proof of actual collection will be required as well. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/selling-policies/payment-dispute-seller-protections?id=5293&st=...

Evidence of successful collection

For Click & Collect items collected from the retailer, the seller must provide evidence that includes all of the following:

• Order ID number
• Item number
• Item title
• Amount paid
• Date of collection
• Buyer's signature confirming collection
• Buyer's photo ID that was presented at the time of collection (if available)
• Address of pickup store or location

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/getting-paid/handling-payment-disputes?id=4799

Buyer doesn’t recognise the transaction or Buyer didn't receive the item

Type of item	Recommended evidence
A physical item collected from retailer, except for vehicles	Valid buyer identification for collection from the retailer and proof of pickup which includes:   Date of pickup Store of delivery (applicable for collection from retailer), matching the postal address on the order Order ID, item number, item title, and price paid The customer's signature on the pickup form or packing slip

[4_bathrooms]

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@lucy_farmer wrote:

Yep.....  OP should win 'item not received' if it's a chargeback, as they do have proof of delivery.

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They don't have proof of collection. According to eBay's payment dispute seller protections evidence of successful collection is required for Click & Collect items.

[*vyolla*]

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@sml192 wrote:

It is still 180 days for an 'Item not received' claim with PayPal.  

It doesn't really matter whether it's a PayPal claim or a chargeback with the buyer's card issuer they are both classed as a payment dispute and are, therefore, dealt with in the same way. 

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You're right, it is still 180 days for a PayPal not received claim, my head must be somewhere else there.

However, the disputes aren't treated same way by a long chalk, which is why it would be good to know which kind of dispute this is.

[woodburningwonders]

I sell about £50 a year no where near to the 1000 mark. as I said it's a hobby. But I didn't realise I had to register as a business on eBay, I'll be doing that asap. 

[sml192]

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@*vyolla* wrote:

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@sml192 wrote:

It is still 180 days for an 'Item not received' claim with PayPal.  

It doesn't really matter whether it's a PayPal claim or a chargeback with the buyer's card issuer they are both classed as a payment dispute and are, therefore, dealt with in the same way. 

---

You're right, it is still 180 days for a PayPal not received claim, my head must be somewhere else there.

However, the disputes aren't treated same way by a long chalk, which is why it would be good to know which kind of dispute this is.

---

A PayPal dispute and a chargeback with a card issuer are different processes and PayPal may view things differently to a card issuer, so it might be useful to know which it is, however, the way they are treated by eBay in relation to the seller is the same.