26-06-2024 5:41 PM
This is as clear as mud to me. Been to the gov. advice website and various others.
How does a 1972 poster fit in to this process?
It's not an exempt category.
Advise buyers this item is for viewing only ?
My initial reaction, sadly, to to switch EU and NI off.
Jo
20-11-2024 11:22 AM
You are I believe referrign to GDPR there...not GPSR.
20-11-2024 2:12 PM
20-11-2024 2:16 PM
I wouldn't want to derail a thread about GPSR about another inherently complex topic (which by the way came into effect in May 2018).
I would suggest starting a new topic.
20-11-2024 2:17 PM
Maybe the platform we pay to a great degree could help ? Long winded undecipherable, or None UK based CS are not the answers really are they.
Other platforms have provided great info - but here? Well excluding both the EU and NI is safest, and maybe it will reduce Regulatory Fees - for which ebay are silent as for what they include.
20-11-2024 2:41 PM
Can you share an example of a platform that has provided great info?
I'm not disputing it - but I can only go on amazon and ebay. Amazon UK state flat out that it doesn't matter in the UK store and ebays is in comparison pretty clear to me.
20-11-2024 2:51 PM
This really is the crux of the problem.
I think we have all concluded that it doesn't matter how old it is, how many you have sold or when you started selling an item, it will be covered by these regulations - whether we agree with them or not.
What we really need to know now is how are eBay going to enforce it and what information do we need to add to which listings to comply? Will they have certain categories that will need more information than others? If your product was made in the EU, is that enough or do you need to provide more documentation even if it isn't available?
I've been putting off revising my listings and postage options until we have more information, but we are now just over 3 weeks away from the regulations coming into effect and we are non the wiser. That is really quite poor on eBays behalf, especially as we all have the pleasure of paying their regulatory operating fee but seem to be getting nothing for the privilege.
Updating all my listings will take at least a full working day, if not longer, so I'm loath to update them all, muck around with delivery options to retain the EU and NI shipping on those that comply and remove it on others, only to then find that because none of the otherwise complaint listings have an instruction manual that they are all removed from sale by eBay anyway.
20-11-2024 3:28 PM
@phauto-parts wrote:
What we really need to know now is how are eBay going to enforce it and what information do we need to add to which listings to comply? Will they have certain categories that will need more information than others? If your product was made in the EU, is that enough or do you need to provide more documentation even if it isn't available?
Have you read this page?
20-11-2024 3:35 PM
Yes,
What I am worried about is the phrases 'Any relevant product information' and 'Product safety and compliance information like warnings and safety information'
If I have a product that was made in the EU, I have the manufacturer information and can provide the product number, then are eBay also going to decide that it also needs product safety and compliance information, even if its not relevant to the product because it is in a certain catagory? What will they decide is relevant?
20-11-2024 3:59 PM - edited 20-11-2024 4:02 PM
The point is that Ebay isn't 100% sure about this either. They say for instance on the page linked above
As with many new laws, there are differing interpretations of the GPSR. To our understanding, Article 51 can mean that you don’t need, for example, to add the additional information required by the GPSR to listings for consumer products that were placed on the EU or Northern Ireland market before 13 December 2024
So they are saying that the interpretation of certain articles in the GPSR is open to interpretation. Even the Department of Business and Trade, who I have been in contact with the last couple of weeks, told me that there are grey areas where even they could not give reliabe advice.
I reckon one just has to wait and see how this is lastly being enforced. What strategy you best take until this point may depend on your personal situation.
20-11-2024 4:02 PM - edited 20-11-2024 4:03 PM
@phauto-parts wrote:Yes,
What I am worried about is the phrases 'Any relevant product information' and 'Product safety and compliance information like warnings and safety information'
This is referring to any safety warnings, user/instruction manuals, disposal instructions, technical documents etc. that are supplied with the product. As the manufacturer is EU-based you do not need the details of an "EU established responsible person" as the manufacturer will fulfil that role. All this information should be available from the manufacturer.
I looked up one of the brands you stock and found the brand's website which seemed to have the relevant documents available for download. However, the brand concerned appears to be UK (not EU) established (I realise they're not necessarily the manufacturer). Note that although separate to the GPSRs anything that requires a CE mark or that needs to meet any other harmonised EU legislation will require the EU Declaration of Conformity or EU Certificate of Conformity to be uploaded as well.
20-11-2024 4:13 PM
My strategy is to take a break from Ebay & let others have the stress. Once I know what line Ebay are taking then I can adapt & start listing again. Yes I will miss some sales but if EU buyers get blocked then my auctions will get few bidders anyway.
21-11-2024 8:18 AM
I am wondering, is the entire scheme about to be suspended (like the attempt to introduce an electronic visitor visa was) because of the complexity and basic un-workability of the scheme.
By now we would expect to see mainstream media news stories about the scheme and at least some of the questions posted here in open discussion in the media. There is nothing. A very significant impact of this scheme will be on parts and widgets imported into EU countries, not just from the UK. The deafening silence is likely an indicator that there is a lot of concern being expressed behind closed doors within the EU that what the scheme has actually done is block off substantial and needed imports to their manufacturing and retail base. Many of us have already simply blocked EU postage and hence orders. We will not be the only ones. The effect will be measurable right now.
This scheme was an attempt to manage all imports and create a mass protectionist internal market for the EU. They will also have expected to make billions from all the 'representative' fees - yet will have found this to be substantially less than expected too.
Basically the scheme is far to complex in a modern free trade world to manage across the wide spread of products and items being traded. Even China dropped much of its protectionist stance! It is bound to fail and that is obvious to anybody who does not wear the rose tinted ideological EU is everything glasses. As the US may also find out soon if the US import tariffs are imposed as projected.
The UK will not be damaged by the scheme as hoped (more Brexit revenge policies).
To that end, I'm re-opening all my EU postage routes because I can not see how it will be enforced. If eBay want to apply draconian filters and block sales to the EU, that is their prerogative, but I have a strong sense that the scheme will be suspended pretty quickly if it goes ahead at all.
The EU has damaged itself immensely over the last decade or so with its isolationism and trying to be big and important and simply can't adsorb much more self-inflicted harm like this scheme will deliver.
21-11-2024 9:02 AM
when it comes to being unable to police it you are probably right. the Germany license thing they introduced a few years back (packaging) does not seem to be policed at all. i turned off Germany as i did not want to pay for a license, yet i know of multiple sellers who just kept shipping to Germany without the license and have seen no hold ups or issues from doing so.
i doubt any of the shipping companies will police it either.
21-11-2024 9:18 AM
I suspect the only reason it has surfaced is that with this extension of GPSR, online market places have been specifically referenced and instructed to police (and apply sanctions) on behalf of the EU. The online platforms have been woefully inadequate in accepting and implementing this authoritarian diktat. If the EU wants to impose protectionism they should do it with their own resources and institutions. Platforms like eBay accepting these diktats opens a Pandora box of further regulation on the whim of whatever political movement is in vogue - the German single use plastic directive being an example although thankfully seems to have drowned. The social media platforms and search platforms are now discovering this with Australia about to go full state control banning social media to all under 16 year olds (good luck with that one!).
Markets can not be controlled. This latest attempt to manage, regulate, coerce, direct and control will only damage the market place and ultimately fail. The EU will likely try and save face and fill it's coffers imposing massive fines on innocent widget sellers, but this kind of scheme is bound to fail given the sheer vast range of items it tries to trap.
21-11-2024 10:05 AM - edited 21-11-2024 10:06 AM
The point here is that technically Ebay can be considered to be placing the items on the EU market, as the EU Blue Guide says in Sect.2.3
For the purposes of Union harmonisation legislation, a product is placed on the market when it is made available for the first time on the Union market. This operation should be done by the manufacturer or by an importer.
and
Placing a product on the market requires an offer or an agreement (written or verbal) between two or more legal or natural persons for the transfer of ownership, possession or any other property right concerning the product in question.
Now the buyer only enters into a contract with Ebay when ordering, not with the seller, so Ebay are placing the item on the market. The seller is merely a kind of drop-shipper for Ebay. If the item is sent with IOSS, then Ebay is technically also the importer as they pay the VAT.
I think this is why Ebay is so nervous about this and are trying to force sellers to make their listings comply both with the GPSR as well as the EPR packaging law. It all depends now on how strictly this is in practice being interpreted and applied by the EU.
21-11-2024 10:23 AM - edited 21-11-2024 10:25 AM
@baby_buzz_direct wrote:The point here is that technically Ebay can be considered to be placing the items on the EU market, as the EU Blue Guide says in Sect.2.3
For the purposes of Union harmonisation legislation, a product is placed on the market when it is made available for the first time on the Union market. This operation should be done by the manufacturer or by an importer.
and
Placing a product on the market requires an offer or an agreement (written or verbal) between two or more legal or natural persons for the transfer of ownership, possession or any other property right concerning the product in question.
Now the buyer only enters into a contract with Ebay when ordering, not with the seller, so Ebay are placing the item on the market. The seller is merely a kind of drop-shipper for Ebay. If the item is sent with IOSS, then Ebay is technically also the importer as they pay the VAT.
I think this is why Ebay is so nervous about this and are trying to force sellers to make their listings comply both with the GPSR as well as the EPR packaging law. It all depends now on how strictly this is in practice being interpreted and applied by the EU.
Exactly. EBay is seen as a supplying business, so any differentiation between private and business accounts on eBay is lost. ALL accounts will need to be compliant (as eBay is placing them on the market). This explains why I was stopped from listing some Apple earbuds a few weeks back on my private account until I removed EU & NI as a shipping option…
21-11-2024 11:03 AM
I think what you say that eBay is solely liable is incorrect,
"Otherwise, traders risk being suspended from the use of the services of an intermediary online marketplace as those will have to make best efforts to assess whether traders have provided this information, Article 31 of the new Regulation (EU) 2022/2065 – Digital Services Act."
The individual traders are at risk, not eBay. eBay may have a separate set of sanctions if it fails to police and and apply sanctions on behalf of the EU. I saw a specific description in an EU document stating online platforms are required, on behalf of the EU, to suspend the ability of the trader. I'm looking back through docs to send the precise reference but there are so many.
It is clear that platforms like eBay are the EU police force in this instance. There is a difference between eBay and Amazon; eBay is the go between between seller and buyer, Amazon buys stock and sells it under it's own brand whilst also being a go between.
I have this,
"
An entirely new section has been included in the GPSR, detailing obligations for “providers of online platforms.” This seems to be a real game changer for both providers of online platforms and all economic operators who sell products through online platforms. Although providers of online platforms are not liable for the compliance and safety of the products themselves sold through their platform, they must ensure – through a battery of due diligence obligations – that traders using their platform only sell products that comply with applicable laws and regulations.
These provisions make providers of online platforms de facto the new “gatekeepers” when it comes to product compliance and safety. Since most traders sell products through online platforms, this could have a tremendous (and hopefully positive) impact on the level of product compliance and safety. If traders want to sell their products via Amazon or the like, they should be in control of their product compliance and safety processes. In case of repeated non-compliance, pursuant to the GPSR, providers of online platforms will have to suspend their services to that trader until further notice." https://incompliancemag.com/the-eus-new-product-safety-law-will-be-a-game-changer/
There was more specific statements in the EU docs, but I can't find it off the top of my head.
It is a significant receding of rights and free trade when the likes of eBay accept becoming the judge, jury and executioner acting without any apparent issue on authoritarian diktats issued by the EU to people who are not even in the EU and specifically, in the case of the UK, voted democratically to not be part of the EU. The EU should do the policing and enforcing alone. eBay should not become the new 'state police service (SPS)' for the EU. We had enough of all that stuff during th cold war.
21-11-2024 11:26 AM
Although all you say makes complete sense to the sane and pragmatic like us traders, when have you ever known the EU actually accept their own shortcomings? In that respect, they and eBay are very similar - so I think waiting for either to actually do anything (other than silently drop the 'policing' as if it never happened) is a forlorn wish.
It strikes me that Clause 51 is at the heart of eBay's actions:
"Providers of online marketplaces should designate a single point of contact for consumers. That single point of contact should serve as a single window for consumer communications on product safety issues, which can then be redirected to the proper service unit of an online marketplace. This should not prevent additional points of contact for specific services being made available to consumers."
So, in the first two sentences, the EU has clearly made (in this case) eBay the responsible body for every single GPSR-qualifying sale in their marketplace. Which means that eBay are the ones expected to supply that single point of contact to consumers - which will cost them, as they will need to build-up from scratch a safety information database of everything sold on their site. So eBay in turn, or more likely their lawyers, have decided to slope-shoulder that responsibility directly to us sellers using sentence three as their raison d'etre.
As also mentioned recently here, Amazon are doing none of this. Any of you who also trade on Amazon will know what a PITA they can be with situations like this, so the fact that they have simply told the EU to foxtrot-oscar demonstrates (a) the greater power they feel they have because they also physically sell products and have warehouses all over Europe generating economic growth (as opposed to eBay who are a just service company) and (b) consequently recognise it is unworkable. More to the point, if they have misjudged it (highly-unlikely) Amazon have that safety information database already in their marketplace catalogue, which they have built up over 25-years through physically selling the items themselves – and, more to the point, over the past two years deleting anything from that catalogue that does not have the necessary data. The remaining data also gives them full demonstrability for used goods still in that marketplace catalogue having been available in and to the EU prior to 13th December 2024.
Having read this thread, our perception (as a seller of used collectibles) is that worst case scenario on 13th December is that eBay will not allow sales to be finalised (ie paid for) to the EU or NI from certain item categories, simply using the destination postcode as a limiter at either basket or checkout points. The listings in those categories will remain displayed on the site as the items need to be purchasable by anyone outside of those locations, because to do anything else will drastically reduce the viability of the site, and hence the company. I think that was, and possibly still is, Plan A. However, should they actually do this, it will royally ****-off buyers on 13th December, and the limiter will likely be made to vanish overnight.
However, eBay have now clearly recognised the effect of the overrider to Clause 51: “Member States shall not impede the making available on the market of products covered by Directive 2001/95/EC which are in conformity with that Directive and which were placed on the market before 13 December 2024” by adding the “recognition” of this in their FAQs. Thus, eBay have effectively created Plan B making their new requirements unnecessary for anything made available on their marketplace prior to 13th December 2024. And the proof of that (for regulatory purposes) is, quite simply, in the listing start date of every single product on offer on the site where EU and NI are currently included in the shipping options. Meaning that, all eBay now have to include in their checkout code is a simple recognition of that listing date, and the sale is compliant.
However, so mealy-mouthed is this “recognition” that we are all unsure of what to do, and consequently still try and comply even though we no longer have to - which is exactly the uncertainty eBay’s lawyers want. Because any new listing activated after 13th December WILL need to comply, meaning eBay will need to have the applicable information in their safety database – and who better to supply that for them than us sellers, free of charge!
So, like many others in this thread, we have adopted a wait and see approach – primarily because we always close down on the last day of posting and do not reopen until the New Year. Best case for us, therefore, is nothing happens and we carry-on as usual. Worst case, all our listings are deactivated by eBay on 13th and we close down a week early, then use the break to make those listings compliant.
Haven’t yet quite worked out what that compliancy might actually look like but (and this is not meant in any way as a recommendation), if necessary, it will likely be along the lines of ticking the most obvious boxes and making a global statement along the lines of products meeting the requirements of the Clause 51 overrider. We will possibly also add a Note to every listing asking buyers in EU and NI to advise us if they are prevented from actually purchasing an item, so that we can use that as the basis for clarification from eBay as to why that particular item is blocked in those marketplaces.
If that doesn't work, we will just have to accept that eBay no longer wants sellers of used collectibles on their site, and find an alternative outlet. Because there will be one, as it will have tens of thousands of potential new customers like us waiting to list on it.
21-11-2024 11:46 AM - edited 21-11-2024 11:50 AM
@dwtrading2015 wrote:I think what you say that eBay is solely liable is incorrect,
"Otherwise, traders risk being suspended from the use of the services of an intermediary online marketplace as those will have to make best efforts to assess whether traders have provided this information, Article 31 of the new Regulation (EU) 2022/2065 – Digital Services Act."
If you read Articles 31 and 32 of the very regulation you linked to, you will find that it only imposes liabilities on the provider of the online platform (i.e. Ebay in this case), not the trader/seller. It says even that the online platform has the duty of informing buyers if there are safety issues with items, so they would practically have to act as the GPSR responsible person here. So any penalties for non-compliance would have to be issued against Ebay as they have not taken due care by getting the required information for the item.
21-11-2024 11:51 AM
I think your reading of Clause 51 is incorrect in that it doesn't place a responsibility on eBay, "eBay the responsible body for every single GPSR-qualifying sale in their marketplace." For that clause eBay only has to provide a one link access to general product safety and compliance information and links to subcategories. This is for consumers to find alerts on product recalls and specific safety information for safe operation, what size fuse to use for example. How that will work bearing in mind the absolute inability of eBay programmers to provide any semblance of a concise easy to navigate user interface across platforms is another matter.
The responsible person (for outside EU sellers) is the one you pay a fee to inside the EU as your representative. They are the ones to contact consumers directly and alert product recalls like a database of car owners (this is never going to happen) and be an address within the EU to send returns too (to overcome the international returns issues a very tiny number of EU consumers encountered with China sales a decade or two ago). This is the simplest filter eBay can apply, the supply of a recognised representative. The EU can apply unlimited fines against eBay for only failing to police the EU law, not for the actual sale.
Platforms will not be held directly responsible for the sales, they are responsible for making sellers comply with the EU regs and enforcing them on behalf of the EU through restricting trading activities. Now, a big question is, will eBay penalise only sales to the EU or will they penalise an entire seller's account in retribution? So if one of my sidelock buckle sale is intercepted at the EU border without a safety booklet or specific manufacturer detail, will eBay suspend my ability to sell to the EU for a month enforcing EU law or will eBay suspend selling to all territories including the UK applying a more draconian form of punishment on behalf of their EU masters?