The NHS?

[cee-dee]

How about we have a thread to put a cat amongst the pigeons?

The news headlines are full of criticisms about chaos in the A & E and about ambulance waiting times but have a think about what the cause of the problems really are?

The long and the short of it is that there are insufficient hospitals and (faithful, overworked) staff at the sharp end all coupled with an ever increasing population.

Now straight away critics will blame "The Government", however, it's not just happened in the last 10 years or so so you can forget jumping on the political bandwagon.

Leaving aside the shortages for a moment, have a look at how things are getting exploited by those "higher up" in the NHS.

At GP level, at one time doctors were happy to become a GP and some experienced doctors needed an incentive to become a Locum. They were expected to be able to cope and fit in with any eventuality so were paid accordingly. That was fine until the wider population of GPs thought that was such a great idea, getting more money for the same job so now hoards of them are packing in the GP job and becoming a Locum. Lack of GPs and the difficulty getting "an appointment" leads to people heading for A & E? The highest paid locum was reported to be coining in over £400k a year so why would anyone want to be a GP if they could make lots of extra money by doing that? Faced with the same situation, I suppose you'd do the same? The system is all wrong?

Now the "Health Boards". The one for this area has 75 people listed on the "Health Board Management Structure". What the heck are they doing? Isn't money being creamed off by relatively non-productive people?

Going back to the Ambulance/A & E waiting times, it's nothing new or just a Winter thing. A bit of history:-

After 10pm on 24th August 2015 (a Monday) I was to be transferried from a hospital here to another and on entering an ambulance I commented on the smell of diesel fumes. The Ambulance staff said they had been waiting outside A & E with a patient on board for five hours! They have to keep the engine running to power all the equipment. I couldn't count the ones waiting so I dunno how many were there.

Not long after that, on the 14th of September (a Monday) again late at night I was taken to the local hospital and had to wait before admission to A & E in the ambulance for over two hours.

So, those two experiences were not in the Winter or at a weekend or during a spell of "infections" at the hospital, it was just the sheer volume of patients requiring treatment and a shortage of beds and staff.

Now, what to do? There's no quick fix is there? Hospitals take time to build and equip not to mention lots of money but then there's the staff needed. Where are they coming from? You can't mass produce doctors or nurses. They tried that with teachers in the '60s by lowering standards and look what happened there?

So, what're we going to do? Any practical suggestions?

[angelah1847]

I work at a children's hospital as a secretary to a nursing director who has the emergency department under her remit.  There are no easy answers to what is going on

[fallen-archie]

CD this is s complex issue, lefties say chuck more money at it, right wingers say privatise it which would make it less accessible for many. On a personal level I believe that we the general public must take some of the responsibility for the situation, we use it and abuse it, I have had first hand experience of what takes place and my oh works for the nhs, some of the stories I have heard would frighten you, did you know that there are frequent callers to the 999 number some of whom require an ambulance crew to be accompanied by police for crew protection, others call two or three times a week and have to be seen, prisoners are routinely escorted to hospitals tying up staff from doing normal duties, I cannot remember the last time I went to hospital and didn’t see an inmate handcuffed to an officer. Then we have the legal pros with representatives hanging around casualty trying to encourage people into the claims culture.
So what is the answer well step one stop mollycoddling the worried well! Stop legal profession from cashing in, make our gps surgeries more accessible and centres which can deal with minor injury cases, send people a bill each year telling them how much they have had spent on them by the nhs and rewarded those who don’t use the service! Prosecute those who abuse the system and reform social care. Bring in a modern form of workhouse where people who fall on hard times can go and undertake work in exchange for accommodation, and revolutionise how we manage those with mental health problems!
So there are my openers to what ought to be a lively debate.

[023mjc]

Our local hospital had about 15 ambulances queued up on new years eve because A&E had no room, and it's a similar story on most ordinary wwekends too.  Pound to a penny half of them were drunks.  Start charging them - not a silly paltry amount that they wouldn't miss or could put on their credit card, but something substantial that would hurt - maybe £500.  I'm sure the NHS or the ambulance service could put the money to good use.

[023mjc]

I have been saying for a very long time that a modern form of workhouse would solve a lot of problems.  Those who are genuinely homeless would welcome the shelter, and the chance to do some worthwhile work.

[right-then-petal]

there seems to be no one in charge at my hospital

on new years eve i called an ambulance to a person i found collapsed, ambulance came in 10mins and staff were very good

patient had a head wound and was bleeding but awake

got to hospital

chinease nurse took names and tested different pressures then went away

waited in corridor on stretcher

a while later she came back and we asked for a bed pan, we waited

she turned up to late

patient was upset and nurse said i could help undress patient as i must have seen it all before

moved to another  room where we waited for a male nurse who took more pressures

blood everywhere by this time

we waited

he came back and said we were being moved to another room

we waited along with 5 other people

after 3 hours i asked what was happening and was told half hour more

we waited another hour blood everywhere

i ask  8 nurses for help and was told to sit down as i was not in best of mood by now

patient very distressed by now and got up to leave big row followed and was told to wait half hour

blood evrywhere

after 4 hours 30 mins a lovely chinease doctor came stopped the bleeding and put 5 staples in wound

we left

[cee-dee]

It ought to be a lively debate, but with the current state of the RT, it doesn't look like it.

You're brave to mention the workhouse, now you have, I agree! However, what to do with the vagrants (oops, must call them rough sleepers) and alchoholic/drug dependent "unfortunates"? Also, should we re-open the old "mental hospitals"?

The drunks who tie up Police and hospital time should be made to pay the full price for the waste of time.

Time wasters and attention-seekers should also be made to pay for the wasted time.

Your mention of prisoners is true. I sometimes meet a chap who works at the prison and he told me about them harming just to get a trip out to the hospital.

So many things needing "attention", no easy answers?

[**bustysinclaire**]

Sadly our NHS is like every other organisation that people depend on, Broken.

2015, a boy in my hometown collapsed, his heart I think. Our hopital was 5 mins away for the Ambulence but they were not allowed to take him there becuase the childrens department had closed. He was in a serious condition and the ambulence was ordered to take him to a hospital 20-30 minutes away. He died on the way. 

[1956glyn]

That is terrible 😞

i do not know about where others live but......at our local hospital they have split it into two sections for A & E.

Real emergency and basically non emergency cases.  

If someone is taken in with a heart attack or other potential  life threatening symptoms etc.....then all the staff rush to help  from the non emergency A & E part to help.   

Yes,  mean your wait is extended by several hours.    On the very very rare occasion i have been waiting in the non emergency A & E Section i am surprised by people complaining about the wait due to the staff being required in the other section.     A lot do not know the difference between real emergency and non emergency cases. 

What is the answer?    Difficult one.   {Personally and yes i know this is very contraversial......limit (not stop) the amount of immigrants coming into the country could be one option. 

[cee-dee]

I think it should be impressed on everyone that "Real Emergency" means immediately life threatening. Non emergency is everything else.

As to immigrants, (which is a whole new can of worms) the restriction should be on those who can't show that coming here would be of benefit to the country, not just to themselves.

[fallen-archie]

I do not believe that immigration has had a negative impact on the NHS, of course there are stories in the gutter press but this is predominantly a problemof our own making, we are putting too much pressure on the system because we can, it’s free, could you imagine what would happen if Sainsbury’s stopped charging for basic essentials?
I wonder how many people try to self diagnose using the internet and end up visiting their doctor because they are worried, A little knowledge is a dangerous thing as is access to the huge resources of the internet without some basic common sense being applied. Of course we all have anecdotes about someone close going before their time, and what might have been, yet our health service provides an excellent service which because it is publicly funded is also politicised to the point of destruction. Because it is a precious commodity we need to become more involved and less needy, likewise all the poor unfortunates who litter our streets, high on spice or buckfast or its with nowhere to go must be given a purpose in life and learn to be more self sufficient.

[1956glyn]

I do agree with a lot of what you say Archie but the NHS is not free.

i defo agree that trying to self diagnose on the internet is a very dangerous thing and i have discussed with with my own GP who basically told me never try to self diagnose.

I think our NHS is a marvelous thing but has flaws.

Shall i grab my tin hat now before i type my next sentence?  🙂

The honest trust is that our family do use the NHS and also sometimes go private.  A few years ago i had a very serious back  accident which resulted in me having to learn to walk again properly.    I make no apologies for going private on this occasion ......had i not at the time immediately gone private due to waiting times on the NHS i would not be 95% "normal" as i am now. 

I honestly cannot see a quick fix for the NHS but i wish i could.

[fallen-archie]

Just to clarify, when I said free I meant you are treated regardless of circumstances, of course everyone who is gainfully employed pays through their taxes which is fair and just imho.
I also believe that if you can afford it or have private healthcare cover there is nothing wrong with that, although yet again we live in a country where many will see this as wrong, privilege is a bad thing these days more than it has ever been and yet we are generally better off than we have ever been. It doesn’t make sense!

[astrologica]

Well done 1956glyn for even mentioning immigration. These days it's quite easily to get stamped on and verbally abused for even daring to suggest that immigration has had any negative effect on this country. I don't know the exact numbers that have come to this country...in my opinion the government doesn't know either. But it is in the millions, rather than the thousands, and that is the ones that are known about. How can they possibly not have a negative effect on the NHS and other necessities of life? I don't have any answers to the problem, but I do know that there is tremendous waste of money in the NHS. Plus...loads of cash paying for medical negligence. Not enough nurses...they made it so that nurses have to have a degree..what happened to the old SRN nurses? Plus, there seems to be a gigantic leap in the numbers of people suffering mental health issues...could some of that be down to drug abuse? 

I think that the plan is to eventually privatise the NHS..indeed , Richard Branson is waiting in the wings to make another billion pound fortune from that. All the thinks that we need in life are now run for profit and the NHS will be no different if there is a fast buck to be made from it. A sad outlook.

[1956glyn]

Plus, there seems to be a gigantic leap in the numbers of people suffering mental health issues...could some of that be down to drug abuse?  

With regard to the above  I think that those that take illegal drugs or excessive alcohol are just masking or trying to escape from other issues in their life.   No one wakes up and one day by choice decides " ok i will become a druggie".    Something has driven them to it 😞   

Mental health issues can affect anyone out of the blue.....often caused by some traumatic event that they have no control over  for example bereavement etc

I personally think that not many people are actually  born with mental heath issues....also Society is very very quick to label people which i think it wrong.  

When it comes to mental health......you need to walk in someones shoes that is suffering or has suffered from it to actually realise how hard it is to manage on a daily basis.  

When someone has a broken arm you can see it and sympathise. those that have mental health probs no matter how mild probably try to hide them.   it is in my opinion ok  to say sometimes.....no i am not ok today but hopefully tomorrow will be better.  

[1956glyn]

Just to add i think that mental health issues have always been around and just come more to light and being openly discussed the past few years which i think is a good thing.

Years ago they were just swept under the carpet...or one was just told to get a grip.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@1956glyn wrote:

Just to add i think that mental health issues have always been around and just come more to light and being openly discussed the past few years which i think is a good thing.

Years ago they were just swept under the carpet...or one was just told to get a grip.

---

So much good change has come over the years with how mental health is dealt with IMHO.

At one time people like my OH would be classed as mad and locked up, he was diagnosed with epilepsy at 16.

[**bustysinclaire**]

I have so much sympathy for the immigrants I really have.

[upthecreekyetagain]

As we’re being controversial then let me add my two penny worth. 

The NHS is broken and it’s broken because it is too good - it’s not broken because of too little money but because of too much.

Take my personal situation - 20 years ago I’d be six feet under by now but due to medical advances the NHS spent tens of thousands of pounds to keep me alive and to give me a good quality of life.  I’m not complaining about the treatment and on a purely selfish level I would never have turned It down - treatment that in the grand scheme of things makes absolutely no economic sense.  The more you keep people like me alive the greater the demand on the NHS will be and the greater the cost.

We often hear that there is a global population crisis and that this is because the birth rate is too high, especially in third world countries. Yes we are facing a population crisis but that’s not because too many are being born, it’s because not enough people are dying and why aren’t they dying? - because of advances in health care.

[**bustysinclaire**]

A very interesting point of view creeky.  xx

I just wish the NHS had advanced far quicker in the treatment of Alzheimers xx