he Iron Lady - Maggie

[welsh.goddess]

is deceased

[kiss*my*pixel]

Also a waste of public money:

Tony Blair has several police officers outside his house (for protection). He earns enough money, IMO (not least from is Middle East exploits concerns) to be able to pay for his own security.

Bob Crowe, General Secretary of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT) and a member of the General Council of ...TUC. He describes himself as a "communist/socialist still lives in a subsidised council property. As does Levi Roots, now a multi-millionaire

(Among many others, of course)

This, too, is a drain on British taxpayers' money

[deansu64]

I dont feel an ounce of sympathy for the miners to be honest, as a working class kid all i remember in the 70's was constant power cut becuase they were on strike time and time again. those POOR miners were the same people during the strike who dropped concrete blocks from bridges onto passing cars of miners who wanted to go to work ,this, if i remember did result in the death of some people and they have the damn cheek to say maggie was evil. the way i see it, feeding my family comes first...i dont give a hoot about others if mine needed food..id break every strike line to do it.

[joe_bloggs*]

"feeding my family comes first" what do you think the miners were fighting for,just the same things as you.

Anyway,if you suddenly came across £10million what could you spend it on?

1 - You could pay over 450 newly qualified nurses for a year
2 - Build 3 new primary schools from scratch
3 - Buy 333 Baby incubators and all the equiptment to run one
4 - 460 newly qualified teachers could be paid for twelve months
5 - 430 new police constables could be paid for a whole year
6 - 655 regular army officers would be paid for a year 
7 - 714 Ambulance drivers paid for a year
8 - Would pay for all costs of 2,057 children and their families for using Sure Start local programmes for four years
9 - Would pay to keep 46 libraries across the country open for a year
10 -Would emply 472 trainee firemen for a year
11- Would pay for 1813 apprentices for a year
12 - Pay the energy bills for 7380 pensioners for a year
13 - Would allow 1190 babies stay in a neonatal intensive care unit for a week

ah well,never mind,she saved some money from the EU budget

[bookhunter2007]

As does Levi Roots, now a multi-millionaire

(Among many others, of course)

This, too, is a drain on British taxpayers' money

Think that's a bit unfair putting him in there with Blair. He lives in Brixton. An area which was absolutely toxic with anger in the 1980s. And he's probably contributed far more to the coffers than you or I.

Personally I think he offers much more value as an entrepreneurial role model (despite any personality flaws) and gives a sense of hope to kids in a deprived area. I'd rather he was living in a council flat than a gun dealer. Broken windows and all that.

[bankhaunter]

ah well,never mind,she saved some money from the EU budget

Enough to pay 3,375,000 newly qualified nurses for a year or build 22,500 new primary schools etc. etc.

[electric*mayhem*band]

i find it disgusting that £10,000,000 is being spent to cart a dead person through London, while the very same government have cut the frail and disabled allowances to the core in the name of austerity, yes we are all in this together but only if you are a tory or a £50 note burner.

Well said, Pete. This totally unnecessary and undeserved (IMhO) extravaganza is obscene, for the very reasons you have outlined. Be interesting to find out just how much her crook of a son is contributing to this spectacle, from his lair on the Costa del Crime.

I know of a twenty two year old who is traveling to London to protest at this circus, peacefully I might add, and is actually taking a day off work to do so. Now you may say, how is someone so young qualified to judge Thatcher's 'reign' ? To that I'd say that no one was around when Henry the Eighth wielded power, but most are aware of his history.

[Anonymous]

141 why do you think people go on strike. do you think because they want to disrupt services, or is it because they want to have enough money to pay for their family, i see the i am all right jack society still prevails. 

[welsh.goddess]

141 why do you think people go on strike. do you think because they want to disrupt services, or is it because they want to have enough money to pay for their family, i see the i am all right jack society still prevails. 

Not necessarily.##When the unions first cropped up, they were invaluable in getting and then protecting the workers rights. And they still are.

But there was a phase, mainly in the 70's, where some Union leaders were very much of the mind set of extreme politics.

The days of the flying pickets were scarey. The closed shop mentality, when people had no choice but to join a Union, and then to do as they were told by the union, the days of a show of hands, when fear meant you followed the unions line, not your own choice. The days of fear and intimidation carried out by the Union heavyies - and many union had them.

Don't get me wrong, I am a strong beleivers in what the Unions have done, and continue to do, and I have been, for most of my working life been a Union member, except when I was in college.

When some jumped up Student Union rep told me I HAD to join  the union, I had no choice, is the only time I never did.

The unions weren't just disrupting services, they were trying to run the country, and sorry, no one voted them into office.

[kiss*my*pixel]

[/quote]

Think that's a bit unfair putting him in there with Blair. He lives in Brixton. An area which was absolutely toxic with anger in the 1980s. And he's probably contributed far more to the coffers than you or I.

Personally I think he offers much more value as an entrepreneurial role model (despite any personality flaws) and gives a sense of hope to kids in a deprived area. I'd rather he was living in a council flat than a gun dealer. Broken windows and all that.

[/quote]

Hi Book - I'm not putting him in there with Blair, just giving some examples of how much taxpayers' money is wasted. I could also have mentioned the Bankers, and the Rover car industry, for instance.

Re his entrepeneurial role, fair point. However, a lot of families could claim the same, but are not living in subsidised housing. He's made good of his life, and fair play to him, this is to be encouraged in all sections of society. Yes Brixton was angry, but so was industrial South Wales (where I grew up).

And this is where I agree with Welsh Goddess's excellent post. The Unions have done an enormous amount of good in the past - they were absolutely necessary when the workforce was bullied and downtrodden. However, they then became the bullies. Growing up in S Wales, my Dad was a Steelworker. People were forced into joining the Unions, they had little choice, it was compulsory.

At that time of the strikes, he knew he couldn't afford to take part, but had to. The steelworkers were on strike for months (as were the miners). The mortgage and hire purchase companies had little sympathy, our car was repossessed and we ended up having to sell our house at way below the market value because he couldn't keep up the mortgage payments. I can remember my Dad watching his car being driven away, trying to contain his sobs. That memory will never leave me, and that was just the start of it. This was the power of the Unions, doing this. You couldn't break the strike, no matter what your financial situation. Our family were not the only ones, people committed suicide over similar situations. And yes, as someone also said above, blocks of stone were thrown from motorway bridges by militant striking miners. It was a horrible, horrible time. But I still am of the opinion that the Unions were holding the entire country to ransom and they were to blame for a lot of the bloodshed and heartache of that time. I actually belonged to the Socialist Worker's Party at the time, and was on our Union Committee. I changed my mind!! 😐

[Anonymous]

the closed shop policy was there to stop the scabs and blacklegs from working while the rest of workforce were out trying for better wages and conditions. Swan Hunter Shipyards had that policy and thank god for it, from our disputes with management we received proper canteen facilities, toilet facility's, air ventilation and conditional working allowances. the scabs who would have worked on would have prevented that, if they can work without then so can you, would have been managements reason, and under camorons rule we are heading that way again.  

[electric*mayhem*band]

Yipeeee, and three cheers for Glenda Jackson, who had the backbone to stand up in the Commons and lambast the evil old harridan.

[bankhaunter]

A person's ability to have a job should never depend on their paying fees to a non professional organisation.

I always remember back in the 60s, the incredulity when a co-worker was describing how when they went with a pontoon up north to one of the shipyards, there had to be five workers used to bolt two wooden fenders on the side.

A boiler maker and his mate to drill through the steel, a carpenter and his mate to drill through the wood and a fitter to do up the bolts.

Something which in our factory one of the younger lads would have done on their own.

That's also down to unions and has a lot to do with the demise of much of the industry.

[kiss*my*pixel]

the closed shop policy was there to stop the scabs and blacklegs from working while the rest of workforce were out trying for better wages and conditions. Swan Hunter Shipyards had that policy and thank god for it, from our disputes with management we received proper canteen facilities, toilet facility's, air ventilation and conditional working allowances. the scabs who would have worked on would have prevented that, if they can work without then so can you, would have been managements reason, and under camorons rule we are heading that way again.  

So we lost our home and our car, but you got better canteen facilities.

Excellent, I'll be sure to let my Dad know, he'll be delighted :_|

[Anonymous]

#151, i am an electrician, if i wish to work on a new build site say a hospital, i would need a j.i.b card or theses days an ecs card, no card no job, the cost £35 per three years, with a trade test before (payable of course) you can apply for grading and your card. i think gas fitters have to do the same, and if you wish to be self employed as an electrician then being Part P qualified counts as well. no part p then you cannot by law install electrics into kitchens or bathrooms.....................so paying to do your job is still about, and i do belive private hire taxi drivers have to pay their office an amount before they receive jobs over the radio.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Pete

It was this type of strike that culminated in the "Winter of Discontent" and the election of Margaret Thatcher.

Since 5th September, the 3,800 boilermakers employed by Swan Hunter on the Tyne have been on strike in support of a claim for a wage increase of 171 per cent. The strike was unofficial, in breach of the industry's agreed procedure for the resolution of disputes, and sought to reopen the existing wage agreement with the company which runs to May, 1974. Some 2,400 other employees have had to be laid off in consequence.

From the outset, the company was prepared to begin negotiations on a cost of living claim provided that normal working was resumed and the agreed procedures followed. The strikers persistently ignored their union executive's instructions to return to work.

On 18th October, negotiations began between the company and the union, with the shop stewards in attendance. The company finally offered an immediate increase of £2·50 a week with a further increase of £1 a week in June, 1973; the agreement to last until the current agreement ends in May, 1974. This offer was rejected, the union refusing to put it to its members. I understand that the union negotiators indicated that they would settle for an immediate increase of £3 a week, with a further increase of £1·50 in January. They then made the strike official.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=1972-10-23a.786.7

[Anonymous]

sorry to hear that kiss, up here in the NE the opposite happened, shops and banks were for the workers, well in wallsend they were. yes i did miss mortgage payments and as said our bank at the time were great. and as for how many blokes it took to do a job, would you either have a jack of all trades or a qualified person doing the job. the so called black trades down the yards needed the extra personnel, if burning through a deck or bulk head just how would the burner know whats on the other side, so he used a lookout to make sure ll was safe to continue, as fires in confined spaces tend to kill people. 

[Anonymous]

hi creeky, 1973...............the yards were then british shipbuilders, i joined the yards in the later half of 76, then swan hunter shipbuilders ltd,  just as hms Newcastle and Glasgow were being fitted out, and just after the fire that killed over 10 personnel within Glasgow's main engine room. so i must have started work there just after the strike, i wondered why people were so misrable.

[bankhaunter]

#151, i am an electrician, if i wish to work on a new build site say a hospital, i would need a j.i.b card or theses days an ecs card, no card no job, the cost £35 per three years, with a trade test before (payable of course) you can apply for grading and your card. i think gas fitters have to do the same, and if you wish to be self employed as an electrician then being Part P qualified counts as well. no part p then you cannot by law install electrics into kitchens or bathrooms.....................so paying to do your job is still about, and i do belive private hire taxi drivers have to pay their office an amount before they receive jobs over the radio.

That's why I said 'fees to a non professional organisations' there is of course requirements in some jobs to belong organisations which involve particular qualifications and where legislation requires it..

However workers unions do not come under such.

would you either have a jack of all trades or a qualified person doing the job.

That rather depends on the job, I would have thought that someone who could drill a hole in steel, could do the same in wood and it doesn't take much skill to do up a nut and bolt.

I worked in a factory making ship's gangways and accommodation ladders anything from 28' to 68' along with their platforms in aluminium and steel, if a job required a particular skill it was done by those with the skill, there was no demarcation as such.

[tommy.irene]

Town turns out to honour war veteran who died in a care home and had no-one to go to his funeral
Albert Vaughan, 89, died in care home but had few relatives to mourn himHome's manager sent out email to veterans inviting them to funeralEmail goes global and hundreds turn out to pay their respects

A war veteran who died with just a handful of relatives to mourn him has been given a hero's funeral after a care home manager sent out a hopeful email which went global. 

About 500 people attended the funeral today of ex-Royal Marine Albert Vaughan who died on his 89th birthday at a Staffordshire nursing home last month.

Standard bearers and members of the public lined the streets as Mr Vaughan's coffin was taken to St Editha's Church, in Tamworth.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308142/War-veteran-given-heros-send-hundreds-strangers-turn...

[salfordmarinade]

Excellent, I can tell all those who lost their jobs in that era it was somehow theirs or their unions fault.
Funny how I don't recall seeing their signatures on closure notices.


Re gas installers: it's a requirement to be registered with Gas Safe and to be competent to work legally.
Fees apply as does re-assessment cost, roughly say about 2k, on the latter.
Last I looked, work for British Gas in this area and you work under their registration no private work in your own time allowed or face dismissal......sounds a bit closed shop like, but from the employers side.

Part P, given impetus by the death of then Lib Dem MP Jenny Tonge's daughter. Now as said, fit a kitchen and need to install an extra socket and you will need to be covered by part P, if not a call out to someone who is covered to do so.
In practice whether you pay to some commercial quango to work or a union sub possibly makes little difference to many, though to be fair it's more likely union subscriptions would result in better working conditions for it's members as that isn't the remit of commercial organizations.

Is it about safety?, well if so you might think it could be better organized and policed.


Distinction between professional and/or legislation and others
BMA is often said to be a professional body, but  most in any seriousness acknowledge it's  a very effective union controlling and acting in the interests of it's members, just substitute annual fees for annual subs.
It has been effective in protecting it's members even under very difficult circumstances but finally gave way on things like re-assessment after Shipman as well as single practice.

Generally true to say demands for either improved pay and conditions is assumed automatically to be a bad thing, where a company hiking up it's prices etc is just another commercial decision.