When will people learn................

[evoman3957]

..........that it is much easier to comply, when told to do something by the Police, than it is not to and to then give them an excuse to have to restrain somebody. Having been taught control and restraint techniques, by the best in the business, I can tell you, the first rule is to take them down to the floor; where they are easier to control. Having said that, there are some EXTREMELY BIG People around, that take an awful lot of effort to get under control.......physically. This latest Black Guy, in America, was very big and strong and it was never going to be easy to restrain Him. He may very well have been doing nothing, to warrant the attention of the Police; but why didn't He just go along and argue the point in the Police Station. He was asthmatic ( from what I can gather ), so the last thing He needed; was the radical exertion that was required to control Him physically. Black People, in some of these places in America, may have a genuine grievance; but pushing things, to force a confrontation every time, is not going to get any kind of a result that will make anybody happy.

[cee-dee]

I don't think your point was overlooked and no, they won't learn.

The fact that someone "was filming" actually made the situation appear worse because it didn't show what led up to it.

When "stopped", he could have simply grumbled "OK, not again but......"

The thing was he was committing an offence and he knew it so it seems clear he got stroppy instead of complying.

Had he complied in the first place, not kicked off or not continued to resist he'd still be alive.

[bankhaunter]

If the Black Guy had simply turned around, put His Hands behind His back ( ready to be cuffed ) and gone with them quietly ( regardless of HOW many times it had happened to Him before );

Should we all become sheep, meekly obedient no matter whether the police action is justified or not just in case they act unlawfully?

Sorry not for me, if need be I will protest.

[fionajohnston]

can i put my bit in

regardless of whether the man resisted or not my understanding is the choke-hold the officer used  BANNED i assume he(the officer)knew iit was banned so he was in the wrong

by using a banned method in which the victem died manslaught(or usa term for this) charges should have been brought 

[suzieseaside]

---

@evoman3957 wrote:

As seem to be so often the case on here, my point has been missed ( more often that not by the same people ). Whether the Police were right or wrong is not the point......at the time.......is it !!  If the Black Guy had simply turned around, put His Hands behind His back ( ready to be cuffed ) and gone with them quietly ( regardless of HOW many times it had happened to Him before ); He'd be ALIVE now. Somebody was Filming the incident, so it would have been for ALL to see; that He had gone quietly and was unharmed / unmarked. If anything had happened to Him after that, while in Police custody, THEN they would have had a lot of explaining to do and He might have got some justice. More evidence or more facts of the incident aren't required, the Police wanted Him to go with them and He didn't want to; that gave them an excuse to jump on Him and now He's Dead.........as I said......When will people learn. I'm not debating whether the Police are over zealous, power crazy, right, wrong, or justified........I'm saying THEY have the Power and a wrong reaction by YOU / US ( especially in America ), could cost YOU / US our Lives.

---

Yes, I see you point, although I would say perhaps not that it would be easier (it must be very frustrating to be targeted for being black which I'm sure happens a lot), but that it would certainly be safer to comply immediately, and definitely in the US where we see a lot of examples of heavy-handedness by the police. I doubt that anyone would disagree with that.

In that video though the big guy does have his hands half up, bent at the elbow in front of his body, before the cops pushed them further up, turned him around and floored him. You say that 'More evidence or more facts of the incident aren't required, the Police wanted Him to go with them and He didn't want to; that gave them an excuse to jump on Him and now He's Dead'.   I'm not convinced the video shows he was resisting their requests to go with him - it all happened very quickly, but perhaps you have seen other evidence. Maybe not everyone knows that it is best to turn around - I wouldn't and I think it's instinctive to want to see what the people confronting you are doing.  Whatever he had done they might have forced him to the ground anyway, not least because of his size.  In that particular instance the cops have a lot to answer to and I'm not surprised at the level of protest there has been.

Given that example, it's not surprising to me that a discussion on whether (some of) the US police are over zealous has followed. This is most likely the reason for such a large number of protesters who must be concerned about the many examples of this type of thing and unarmed people including kids being shot by police over there.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

I don't think your point was overlooked and no, they won't learn.

The fact that someone "was filming" actually made the situation appear worse because it didn't show what led up to it.

When "stopped", he could have simply grumbled "OK, not again but......"

The thing was he was committing an offence and he knew it so it seems clear he got stroppy instead of complying.

Had he complied in the first place, not kicked off or not continued to resist he'd still be alive.

---

I'm not arguing that is not the case - what I am arguing is that without the full facts it is impossible to understand why he didn't comply - it is easy to deflect blame from those who actually did the killing onto the victim by saying, "it's his own fault" - the real question surely though should be, was the killing justified?

[suzieseaside]

As Fiona said, clearly the choke-hold method was not justified, so no the killing was not justified.

For the second time in as many weeks, a grand jury decided not to indict a police officer for the use of excessive force. This time, however, the weapon of choice was not a gun, but a set of hands, used in an apparent chokehold on an asthmatic Staten Island man named Eric Garner — a tactic that, as it turns out, is forbidden by the NYPD.

This is what the NYPD patrol guide says:

Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.

That's explicit. And it has been the department's policy since 1993, shortly after five officers were put on trial (four of whom were acquitted) for killing a 21-year-old by "traumatic asphyxia."

In fact, the NYPD has been warning officers, at least in writing, about the dangers of using chokeholds for decades. In 1985, according to the law journal, then-police commissioner Benjamin Ward limited their use, mandating that they not be used "routinely," and disallowing their use unless an "officer's life is in danger or some other person's life in danger and the choke hold is the least dangerous alternative method of restraint available to the police officer."

But even though the limitation on chokeholds by New York City police officers went from seldom to never, police officers appear to have continuously used the maneuver.

Between June 2013 and July 2014, the Civilian Complaint Review Board, an independent city agency that examines accusations of police misconduct, received more than 200 chokehold complaints. Extend the period back to 2009, and the total number soars into the 1000s. Nearly 200 complaints have been filed on average each year since 2001.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/12/03/the-nypd-banned-chokeholds-20-years-ago-b...

[lambsy_uk]

Make you wonder how millions of people get through life with barely any contact with the police!

[evoman3957]

As I said earlier, I have been trained, by the best in the business, in Control and Restraint techniques ( although I took early retirement and have been out of it for a few years now ). There were definitely "No No's" when it came to certain holds and those that restrict the airway, were and always will be one of the main "No No's". The fact that they didn't know He was asthmatic, just goes to show why. Strangle holds on the fittest of people are dangerous enough, but when you don't know somebody's medical history; then using a hold like that is asking for trouble. Having said that, I've had to "Take down" some extremely Big People; one ( I remember ) waking down a corridor with 5 of us hanging on to Him ( He was carrying 2 of us ). The ones we had to restrain, posed MUCH more of a threat than that Black Guy did. OK, He was irate; but I'm not aware He was actually threatening anybody, or was a danger to Himself or anybody else. Unfortunately, We create  Society; where we give the Police power to do as they see fit, with any redress taking place AFTER the event. As they are made up of mere Mortals, with all the same faults and shortcomings as everybody else, there will inevitably be problems. The alternative, is to severely restrict their Power & authority and knowing People as I do ( especially those less morally gifted ) that would NOT produce a society most of us would like to live in. The Police force in question though, definitely need to look at the training of their officers and their control & restraint techniques............and maybe even their psychological fitness to do that sort of work.

[cee-dee]

What has to be remembered is that it was in America, not the UK.

Over there, guns are everywhere and those cops didn't know whether he was armed or not. We don't know what transpired before the cops grabbed him and if you've never watched any of the American cop programmes, you won't know that, depending on circumstances, the cops call out instructions to people and they're expected to comply first and ask questons or protest afterwards.

People can be instructed to "raise you hands, turn around and put them on the wall/car" or "get on the ground, NOW".

The cops don't just walk up to someone and grab them first off.

If you have some sort of "disability" surely the simplest way out is to comply first? HE knew he was asthmatic and would know it doesn't do to get agitated but it didn't stop him kicking off did it? Why continue to resist?

[evoman3957]

I agree, as I made clear by starting this Thread..............when will people learn..........I guess we got the answer.........when they're Dead.

[bankhaunter]

Over there, guns are everywhere and those cops didn't know whether he was armed or not.

At the moment he was grabbed in the choke hold from behind both his hands were in the air clearly visible

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/dec/04/i-cant-breathe-eric-garner-chokehold-death-vide...

[cee-dee]

He was NOT surrendering, he was gesticulating as he was arguing in a belligerent manner.

His arms had been going up and down as he gesticulated as he expressed his annoyance at being "stopped".

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

He was NOT surrendering, he was gesticulating as he was arguing in a belligerent manner.

His arms had been going up and down as he gesticulated as he expressed his annoyance at being "stopped".

---

Oh well - if that was the case it was clearly his own fault he was killed - what more could he expect!!!!!!!!!

[suzieseaside]

cee-dee wrote:

Had he complied in the first place, not kicked off or not continued to resist he'd still be alive.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and if the police had not used a banned method of restraint to cut off his air supply he would also still be alive.

He could be heard saying repeatedly that he could not breathe. I think there is no excuse for the behaviour of the police in this instance and clearly a large proportion of the American public, black and white, think the same. 

In footage of the moments leading up to the chokehold Garner is heard telling police: “Every time you see me, you wanna harass me, you wanna stop me … I’m minding my business, officer.”

So much for civil rights and equality in the justice system in the US. It's a farce and racism is still rife in the police in the US and in the UK.  

[cee-dee]

I agree the chokehold was unjustified but had he not got belligerent and complied, there'd have been no chokehold and also, there's been no mention of his past history when confronted by the cops, a history which might be the reason for the cops pouncing on him.

He continued to resist even though he was pinned down, again, he could have stopped resisting but no.......

[al**bear]

Shock

Even George W Bush, is totally surprised that no action is being taken against 'choke hold cop'

NYPD officers at work, even in an area filled with people,

2 innocent women shot , after Police shoot at unarmed Man in crowded Times Square

[fallen-archie]

The recent events are a typical end product of a violent society where individuals put their own rights above those of others. Yes the Police are at fault but so too the idiots who kick off making themselves a nuisance to everyone else.
If the guy had not been threatening and mouthy and the police had still acted in the way they did then the outcome may have been different.
If you do become embroiled in a potentially violent situation which develops into physical action you may well over power your opponent, they then become submissive so you respond by releasing your grip and bingo off they go again.
So in a safe and peaceful world which is what the majority seek, let's ensure that the police are accountable for their actions as well as those who frequently break the law. If asked by a policeman to stop then just do it, if you are caught doing 90mph why argue the toss,
The answer is probably that we all consider our actions to be reasonable when often they are not.

[duck_a_lorange]

25 Activities Black People Should Avoid Around Cops

Don't play in the park with toy guns and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't ask for help after a car accident and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't wear a hoodie and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't cosplay with a toy sword and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't shop at Walmart and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't take the BART and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't ride your bike and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't reach for your cell phone and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't go to your friend's birthday party and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't sit on your front stoop and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't "startle" them and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't "look around suspiciously" and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't walk on a bridge with your family and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't play "cops and robbers" with your buddies and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't work in a warehouse repairing instruments and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't stand in your grandma's bathroom and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't pray with your daughters in public and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't go to your bachelor party and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't have an ex boyfriend who might be a suspect and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't call for medical help for your sister and maybe they won't kill her.

Don't hang out in the park with your friends and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't get a flat tire and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't park in a fire lane and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't reach for your wallet and maybe they won't kill you.

Don't let your medical alert device go off and maybe they won't kill you.

[saasher2012]

I think you will find those rules apply to most of the poor areas in America regardless of race, mainly because they themselves are living on a knife edge of crime & violence, not all its true but they seem to have a ghetto mentality.
Not all cops are bad & not all those that they stop are either. Whilst it remains a gun toting country these incidents will continue to happen.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@fallen-archie wrote:
The recent events are a typical end product of a violent society where individuals put their own rights above those of others. Yes the Police are at fault but so too the idiots who kick off making themselves a nuisance to everyone else.
If the guy had not been threatening and mouthy and the police had still acted in the way they did then the outcome may have been different.
If you do become embroiled in a potentially violent situation which develops into physical action you may well over power your opponent, they then become submissive so you respond by releasing your grip and bingo off they go again.
So in a safe and peaceful world which is what the majority seek, let's ensure that the police are accountable for their actions as well as those who frequently break the law. If asked by a policeman to stop then just do it, if you are caught doing 90mph why argue the toss,
The answer is probably that we all consider our actions to be reasonable when often they are not.

---

And would you be so reasonable on the sixth time you were stopped because the police thought you might have been doing 90mph even though yet again you were only doing 60mph? 

"Yes officer, of course officer, three bags full officer"