When does democracy become.......

[cee-dee]

When does Democracy become mob rule?

Failing that, when does mob rule become democracy?

Democracy is supposed to be the rule of the people and that's usually decided by the majority supporting the same idea?

I'm particularly thinking about the case of Ched Evans and the statement made by the chairman of Sheffield United that Ched Evans was prevented from playing there by mob rule (otherwise reported as "mob-like behaviour").

Now it seems that Oldham Athletic are considering offering him a place and there's been reports that they won't be swayed by any similar protest. A bit insensitive that isn't it considering the many recent reports concerning Oldham and Rochdale abuses?

[joe_bloggs*]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/oldham-being-named-league-one-8379869

Have a look at the reporters name

He must be a bit miffed that cheques are going out of fashion

[lhasa.two]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

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@lhasa.two wrote:

I don't think  60,000 people signing a petition can be called 'mob rule'. It's a clear case of people demonstrating their democratic right to protest that Ched Evans is not a player they want back in a club they support. Their support has paid his salary of £20,000  per week until the end of his contract which has now ended and they didn't want him back.

Call me old fashioned but this is not a decent man, he is a convicted rapist, he two timed his fiancee, has sought publicity to support his "innocence" and stupidly our legal system has now granted him an appeal.

He hasn't given his victim a second thought of how this **bleep** and subsequent publicity means she has not been able to resume her life. He's a disgrace and I hope he never gets another job in football.

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Hardly! - The Blades average attendance last year was only 17,500. 

Likewise I'm not sure how you can call the legal system stupid before any appeal has been heard - what if an appeal clears him?

Do you feel the same about the two killers I linked to earlier in the thread?  Both seem to have been accepted back by the fans.

I'm a Seagull's season ticket holder and I'm not sure how I'd react if any of those players were employed by my club, I suspect I'd be like the majority of the fans and judge them on how they performed on the field.

I certainly wouldn't defend him on the basis of his morals, if footballers were judged on their behaviour off the field there would be many better known players than Ched Evans out of a job!

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As I understand it, the club he played for continued to pay his salary whilst he was in prison until his then contract ended. 

As far as I'm concerned he's been convicted of **bleep** and I'm very surprised the legal system has allowed him an appeal  particularly under the circumstances of his arrogant uncontrite behaviour since he was released from prison together with his inability to accept that what he did was wrong. That's why I called them stupid. His behaviour in my view is morally reprehensible both his treatment of the woman and his fiancee and it's not enough for him to bleet on about his innocence, so yes I do judge him by his morals and his recent  behaviour, and frankly I don't care if he's declared "innocent" on appeal because in my book he's not! He was not drunk when he raped her so he can't use that as an excuse...

The less said about other footballers and their antics the better! 

creeky, I'm off to bed so not up to any further discussion on the rights and wrongs of my views on this. I'm generally very balanced in my opinions on most things but I'm afraid I'm not when it comes to this young man...

[tommy.irene]

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/ched-evans-mask-yobs-condemned-4919271..... ....... .It said: “Evans is a convicted rapist. He refuses to ­acknowledge his guilt or ­apologise to his victim. Oldham is said to be ­considering signing him. This is a damaging message about **bleep** and sexual consent to be giving fans.”

[tommy.irene]

Convicted rapist Ched Evans: Oldham Athletic 'considering pulling out of deal for striker' Around 20,000 people have signed an online petition urging the club not to sign Evans, which reportedly may force a dramatic U-turn Comeback: Evans was rumoured to be set for a return to the Football League Oldham Athletic are reportedly considering pulling out of a move for convicted rapist Ched Evans. Gordon Taylor, Chief Executive of the Professional Footballers' Association told BBC Radio 5Live over the weekend that Evans had been offered a deal at an unnamed League One club. Evans was set to train with the Latics, ahead of securing a move to Boundary Park. But around 20,000 people have signed an online petition urging the club not to sign Evans, which has forced a dramatic U-turn, according to The Sun. The news comes as club sponsor Verlin revealed it will terminate any involvement with Oldham should the club sign Evans........http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/convicted-rapist-ched-evans-oldham-4920093?ICID=FB_mirro...

[cee-dee]

Now it seems another petition is on the rounds and a sponsor of Oldham Athetic say they will pull out of their sponsorship if Evans is signed.

Sooooo, we're back to the question surrounding democracy and mob rule?

[evoman3957]

"Democracy is the hiding place of Scoundrels"

[aernethril]

I don't think it is right to describe it as 'mob rule', which I thnk is a term which has been used

If a peaceful and lawful campaign by a significant number of people over any issue which they both think and demonstrate is not right can bring about a change of thought by those who make decisions, then that is social democracy.

Calling it 'mob rule' is to denigrate people and their right to campaign for change or for something to not happen.

The 'mob rule' is how I would describe all those who come together to act unlawfully, to take the law into their own hands and to add to the misery of others with no care of the effect on others.

Three articles on this - one that the new petition against him being signed for OA was the fastest growing petition on that site with a signee every second

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/petition-against-oldham-signing-ched-evans-one-of-the-fastestg...

the second, just a few other options for his return to work with examples of those who have beein insided and come out again.

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/5-ways-offenders-can-be-rehabilitated-without-professional-foo...

and the third, what I would call an attempt at 'mob rule'

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/what-the-woman-who-started-the-petition-against-ched-evans-has...

For me the key is Evans himself as it has been in the other two examples that Creeky posted earlier.  Firstly those guys served a lot more of their time, but one clearly has taken total responsibility for what he has done and gone further to try and help the family his actions devastated and to recognise he still has work to do and that what he did will never go away.  The other seems to think he's done his time so he can just pick up his life and get on with it, with the support of his club, and that just seems so wrong to me.

Evans should take himself out of the limelight and do something else regardless of any appeal or what comes of it.  It is Evans who simply will not accept that his behaviour is the cause of all this angst.

[j_uk643]

You were suggesting a lack of knowledge about bars to employment. I suggested you contact any offender organisations and ask them if you had an interest. I doubt that will happen though. As to the rest there's no doubt

[j_uk643]

He has been convicted, and has had two applications for appeal refused because 4 appeal court judges ruled the conviction was safe. Its alway amazing how much more knowledable some people are, having no legal background, who did not attend trial, and how have no legal points to raise just an emotive appeal that somehow he is innocent

As to celebrity and role model, take that up with the sponsors who believe there are commerical reasons to support teams

[j_uk643]

Those campaigning in general  I suspect would argue it's not actually about Evans, it's about that serious sexual offence and attitudes which help reinforce it.

There are indeed other players who have been convicted and served time. Thats not much of an argument for defence however

Anelka made what was considered by one of his clubs sponsors as an anti-semitic gesture , the sponsor being Jewish. A few weeks later Anelka had gone.

lol " mob rule...its a phrase used by those with nothing much else to offer when they don't agree with something

9 of Evans family and friends were convicted of offences against the victim.

[j_uk643]

As for his 'appeal' it isnt - his initial application, and renewed application the latter before LCJ and two other appeal court judges was rejected based on the applications submitted. Difficult to get a more senior review than that

Thats the best his future father in laws money can buy of British justice

His current application with the CCRC is just another attempt at at the same having exhausted the above

Without significant new evidence such as to render the judgment unsound, his chances of success are statistically tiny

[electric*mayhem*band]

Good post, Ihasa.

Not against him getting a job. Let him go out and get one. He could try a building site, warehouse work, or the tills in Tesco. We've all heard how difficult it is for an ex con to find suitable employment, maybe he should experience this for himself. If he discovers nobody will employ him, might I suggest he buy a bucket, a chamois, and a set of ladders, and get himself a window cleaning round ?

Or if he really, really wants to get back into 'the beautiful game', I'm sure there are plenty of jobs he could do behind the scenes. But NOT on the pitch as a goal scorer. TBH, I don't know how he has the brass neck to face a barrage of football fans......Oh hang on a sec. Couldn't be the huge overly inflated weekly pay packet could it ?

One more thing. I just wish the general public would cease holding the footballing fraternity in such high esteem and reverence, as if they were Gods sent down from Mount Olympus. Although I suppose sadly, this will never happen.

[aernethril]

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One more thing. I just wish the general public would cease holding the footballing fraternity in such high esteem and reverence, as if they were Gods sent down from Mount Olympus. 

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Amen to that.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@electric*mayhem*band wrote:

Good post, Ihasa.

Not against him getting a job. Let him go out and get one. He could try a building site, warehouse work, or the tills in Tesco. We've all heard how difficult it is for an ex con to find suitable employment, maybe he should experience this for himself. If he discovers nobody will employ him, might I suggest he buy a bucket, a chamois, and a set of ladders, and get himself a window cleaning round ?

Or if he really, really wants to get back into 'the beautiful game', I'm sure there are plenty of jobs he could do behind the scenes. But NOT on the pitch as a goal scorer. TBH, I don't know how he has the brass neck to face a barrage of football fans......Oh hang on a sec. Couldn't be the huge overly inflated weekly pay packet could it ?

One more thing. I just wish the general public would cease holding the footballing fraternity in such high esteem and reverence, as if they were Gods sent down from Mount Olympus. Although I suppose sadly, this will never happen.

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Aren't you guilty of doing exactly what you are saying you wish others wouldn't by saying it would be fine for Ched Evans to work at other jobs but "NOT on the pitch as a goal scorer".

[electric*mayhem*band]

Is that some sort of cryptic clue I'm expected to decipher ? If so, it's gone straight over my head.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@electric*mayhem*band wrote:

Is that some sort of cryptic clue I'm expected to decipher ? If so, it's gone straight over my head.

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Not really - by saying that it would be fine for Evans to get a job on a building site, Tescos etc but not as a football player then you are surely treating football as special - something you say you'd wish others wouldn't do.

[electric*mayhem*band]

Football as special ? I should have thought that was clear in my post. I loathe and detest football, it's my anathema. If people want to follow the game and treat it as some kind of religion, that's entirely up to them, but not for me thank you. I have never been to a football match in my life. In fact I would rather stick red hot needles in my eyes than endure one.

Full stop, new paragraph.

[evoman3957]

I think it's the best place for Ched Evans. Let lose into Society ,to do a proper job that may require some degree of competence, He could do an untold amount of damage.

[joe_bloggs*]

I remember a few of used to climb over the fence to get into St James Park when Malcolm Mc Donald used to play for Newcastle,He had a fancy menswear shop in Newgate Street shopping arcade,and every time Newcastle lost you can bet your bottom dollar some enraged fan would lob a brick through the window! no doubt different people threw the bricks,so i suppose you could call it Democratic mob rule..

Just as an aside my partner was at a local bingo a while back and heard a bit of commotion,turned round to see a sozzled Malcolm McDonald trying to play bingo but talking loudly to his partner,one of the staff had a quiet word with him,and probally saving him from being mobbed by a gang of angry pensioners

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@electric*mayhem*band wrote:

Football as special ? I should have thought that was clear in my post. I loathe and detest football, it's my anathema. If people want to follow the game and treat it as some kind of religion, that's entirely up to them, but not for me thank you. I have never been to a football match in my life. In fact I would rather stick red hot needles in my eyes than endure one.

Full stop, new paragraph.

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In which case I can't see your objection to Evans playing football rather than any other job? ???