What if?

[cee-dee]

OK, so no-one wants to argue any more but what if.........................

A couple of years back referendum was called about either staying in or leaving the EU and the majority voted to leave. Since then arguments have raged back and forth and the remainers are agitating for another referendum.

What if they had another vote and this time the result was to remain BUT, then the leavers started agitating for another making claims for this, that or the other? Would the remainers claim "We had a democratic vote so that's that, we remain IN".

We had a democratic vote before though? The result of that was to LEAVE so if a second vote went the other way would any notice be taken of leavers wanting yet another?? If not, why not?

Shouldn't a vote on something be IT as regards any result not a cause for those who didn't like the result to agitate for another? Where does it end?

By that reckoning it could result in a parliamentry vote for a constituency which ended in a close vote for one person then having those opposed to then claim it was "close" so they demand another go? How many "go's" do you want?

[mikes*corvettes]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

People change their minds all the time - why shouldn’t we have another referendum, especially as the first one was only ‘advisory’?

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Which people have changed their minds ?

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@mikes*corvettes wrote:

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

People change their minds all the time - why shouldn’t we have another referendum, especially as the first one was only ‘advisory’?

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Which people have changed their minds ?

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Most normal people change their mind on a regular basis.

[mikes*corvettes]

You really are clutching at straws now, so you are in a postion to read peoples minds and can lay claim that they have changed their minds about Brexit. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

I never said people have changed their minds about Brexit!

I said people change their mind all the time.

[023mjc]

I say this regardless of how I voted last time.

If we have another referendum, I will vote the same way as I did last time - and then I will never vote for any one or anything again. A second referendum would just prove to me that my vote ( and yours) is totally meaningless.  If they can change a decision because they don't like it, is NOT democracy.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@023mjc wrote:

I say this regardless of how I voted last time.

If we have another referendum, I will vote the same way as I did last time - and then I will never vote for any one or anything again. A second referendum would just prove to me that my vote ( and yours) is totally meaningless.  If they can change a decision because they don't like it, is NOT democracy.

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Many people would agree with you which is why they vote for the Tory/Labour/LibDem/ etc. candidate at elections irrespective of who the candidate is.

Personally I prefer to make an informed judgement on the individual or motion being proposed at the time. 

[mikes*corvettes]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

I never said people have changed their minds about Brexit!

I said people change their mind all the time.

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This thread is about Brexit is it not ?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Yes - and???

[upthecreekyetagain]

You seem to be missing the point of my post you quoted from.

People change their mind all the time, the make of car they prefer, their favourite restaurant, the clothes they wear, where they shop and so on.  This is often based on experience of their previous choices or information about their new choice.

Why shouldn’t people be allowed to change their mind about the way they cast their vote in a non-binding referendum once information about what the actual conditions on leaving are known?

What are those who voted to leave afraid of?

[023mjc]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

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@023mjc wrote:

I say this regardless of how I voted last time.

If we have another referendum, I will vote the same way as I did last time - and then I will never vote for any one or anything again. A second referendum would just prove to me that my vote ( and yours) is totally meaningless.  If they can change a decision because they don't like it, is NOT democracy.

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Many people would agree with you which is why they vote for the Tory/Labour/LibDem/ etc. candidate at elections irrespective of who the candidate is.

Personally I prefer to make an informed judgement on the individual or motion being proposed at the time. 

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I don't.  I vote for whoever- in my opinion - is making the right noises, regardless of which party they belong to.

I have been voting regularly for 50 years and have changed my chosen party a few times. Like you, I vote for the individual or proposed motion at the time. 

I made my decision and voted accordingly in the referendum as I do in general elections.  But I don't expect the winning vote to be overturned f I don't like it.

[upthecreekyetagain]

And would you necessarily vote for the same candidate at the following election if more information came to light about them or you found out that what you expected of them wasn’t going to happen.

The yes/no vote was far too simplistic because at the time we had no idea what ‘deals’ could be made or under what conditions we would be leaving.  By the end of the year we will know the answer to that - this may well reinforce the decision you made in the initial vote or it may cause you to change your mind.

We needed the referendum to get to this point because without it and without the ‘leave’ vote we would have just continued to stumble on in the way we were without knowing what the truth was of what would happen if we left.

Once we do know how leaving the EU will change our way of life, (or not), then the people will be in the position to confirm their original vote, (or not).

[023mjc]

So in that case, no vote should be binding. We should all demand another election if we don't like who gets to be PM ?  There are always going to be a vast number of people who don't like a decision or an MP or PM, but that shouldn't be allowed to over ride what the majority wanted.

As was previously suggested people change their minds all the time, but where do you draw the line.  If we have another referendum, who's to say more info won't come to light after that so we'll have to have another, and another.

As has been pointed out, we wern't asked twice about joining the common market 40 years ago, and no one worried then that it was going to effect the lives of all the kids who were not old enough to vote, or that people didn't know what they were voting for.

A decision was made. A line needs to be drawn.   Brexit should mean Brexit.

[upthecreekyetagain]

The problem is we do NOT know what Brexit means - we won’t know until the end of the year when negotiations are complete. 

[fallen-archie]

We know that Brexit means leaving the EU, that is what people voted for! What we don’t know are the details, will we be better or worse off, will environmental laws be trashed and will we become a full blown gig economy with people living from hand to mouth? Well guess what? We will be in a position to effect change via the ballot box, we could decide to have even tougher legislation on things like employee rights than the EU! And will Europe cherry pick our industry, well only time will tell, certainly the threat is there but it always has been, whatever the outcome do you seriously think that Europe will ignore us and that countries like Spain will suddenly stop us visiting and pouring millions into their economy? Or that we will suddenly turn our backs on the European markets because we have to clear customs, China still seems able to trade with the EU so why not little old U.K.? All this noise about a people’s vote is itself a smokescreen to scare people away from their wish/desire to be a little more independent, free from an undemocratic monolith which dictates our lives. Who is Barnier? Who is Junker? And who is the drunken Belgian who ponces around waving two fingers at us? We too are adults and deserve to be heard, what would have happened if Ireland had had their way and departed? Would we have rebuilt a wall?

[cee-dee]

I see the RT argufier-in-chief is making a strong case for his point of view? Sorry, couldn't resist, I can resist everything but temptation 🙂

Opening a new line.... how can you "negotiate" with those who won't negotiate?

In bargaining, if one side is fool enough to make an offer, the other side will see what they're prepared to pay and demand more. There's no point in any more "bargaining" with the EU because they don't want to "bargain" anyway.

Leaving the EU should mean just that, we leave, end of story. Any bargaining should come afterwards. I don't see why there's any need for "Trade Agreements" anyway, trade is trade. From what I can make out, these trade agreements are a form of protectionism = a bar on trade!

There's a bone or two, have a chew on those?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Of course countries within the EU will continue to trade with us, what we don’t know is under what terms.

What we don’t have at the moment is an individual trade agreement with any country - all our trade outside of the EU is carried out either under EU trade agreements or WTO ‘rules’.  Trade carried out either directly with EU members or under EU deals represents 

66% of our imports and 57% of exports. 

Of course we will be able to travel - we just don’t know under what terms. 

Will there be an equivalent to the E111 - who knows?

These are just two areas, there are hundreds more to be agreed - I wouldn’t commit to a loan without knowing the terms of the deal yet the country is walking blindly into a far bigger commitment. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Who goes into negotiations with such a weak hand?  All the time “Brexit means Brexit” is being quoted the EU can demand or deny anything they want.

Referring back to my analogy of a loan - the lender, (EU), knows that we will take out the loan, (leave the EU), no matter how high the interest rates. 

“Trade is trade” sounds good but comes at a price - look at the WTO tariff list.

Most trade agreements made between countries take years to finalise - what happens in the meantime? 

In any case those are arguments put forward by those who want to remain in the EU.

My argument is neither for remaining nor leaving but for the right to have a democratic vote to decide once we know the terms, the right to reject or accept the loan depending on the terms of the agreement. 

[mikes*corvettes]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

yet the country is walking blindly into a far bigger commitment. 

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 Exactly what happened in 75, thank God we have now been given the chance to put it right.

[fallen-archie]

How on earth can we negotiate with our cards on the table? We are not taking out a loan that is an inappropriate analogy, all we wish to do is make our own decisions for our own good, as far as I can see whoever was trying to negotiate here is on a hiding to nothing as long as we continue to ask the terms of our withdrawal! I have not seen one iota of evidence showing goodwill on the part of the EU, they continue to tighten the noose around the necks of our politicians in order to save their own, that’s politics at its worst and the sooner we get out of the noose the sooner we can all wind our necks in an begin to live again!

[upthecreekyetagain]

It was the referendum and the insistence that the answer to that referendum was final that has put “all our cards on the table”.

The EU negotiators know that Mrs. May is in an impossible political position having continuously preached, “Brexit means Brexit”.

We have no cards all the time we insist our actions have been pre-determined.