What if?

[cee-dee]

OK, so no-one wants to argue any more but what if.........................

A couple of years back referendum was called about either staying in or leaving the EU and the majority voted to leave. Since then arguments have raged back and forth and the remainers are agitating for another referendum.

What if they had another vote and this time the result was to remain BUT, then the leavers started agitating for another making claims for this, that or the other? Would the remainers claim "We had a democratic vote so that's that, we remain IN".

We had a democratic vote before though? The result of that was to LEAVE so if a second vote went the other way would any notice be taken of leavers wanting yet another?? If not, why not?

Shouldn't a vote on something be IT as regards any result not a cause for those who didn't like the result to agitate for another? Where does it end?

By that reckoning it could result in a parliamentry vote for a constituency which ended in a close vote for one person then having those opposed to then claim it was "close" so they demand another go? How many "go's" do you want?

[suzieseaside]

Yes, I had already discounted employment in Europe as being a valid reason to claim Brexit is going to ruin their lives. I forget the actual youth unemployment figures in those countries but I know they are high, and very much higher than here.

Also, if borders between EU and non-EU countries are such a massive problem as claimed, why aren't there huge lorry queues at the Swiss borders with surrounding countries?

[suzieseaside]

Perhaps Switzerland isn't a great example but I don't believe that the border issues regarding trade movements are so difficult to solve as some are making out.

[cee-dee]

Ah, borders. I think it's a mad idea not having border controls. OK, so the lack of hard borders speeds things up but it also aids smuggling of all sorts. If countries (all of Europe included) had hard borders there's more chance of finding illegal stuff.

[astrologica]

Borders are THE one thing that the EU doesn't want. Open borders are one of the main pillars that the EU is built apon..and an absolute requirement for the 'Open Society' that is the ultimate aim. I think it was Archie? Who said that the whole Brexit thing could have been avoided if the EU had just agreed to us not having free movement. He is quite correct there, but that was never going to happen. Free movement is a must for them..that is why the Visigrad countries are such a thorn in their side, because they refuse the free movement of thousands of economic migrants.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

Borders are THE one thing that the EU doesn't want. Open borders are one of the main pillars that the EU is built apon..and an absolute requirement for the 'Open Society' that is the ultimate aim. I think it was Archie? Who said that the whole Brexit thing could have been avoided if the EU had just agreed to us not having free movement. He is quite correct there, but that was never going to happen. Free movement is a must for them..that is why the Visigrad countries are such a thorn in their side, because they refuse the free movement of thousands of economic migrants.

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No more so than the UK - indeed the UK mainland has the advantage of not having a land border either with another EU country nor a non-EU country.

The Visegrad countries ironically are suffering a major labour shortage restricting their economic growth.

[cee-dee]

The UK mainland is not the issue really. There is a land border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic which is "in" the EU.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK (at the moment) and lots of the argument (a stumbling block if you like) is about having some sort of agreement over the Irish border issue when (or if) the UK leaves the EU.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Indeed - but as regards the ‘free movement’ of refugees it is not a problem.

[cee-dee]

It is, they'll head for the Republic of Ireland, cross the border in to NI then hop it over the Irish Sea.

[fallen-archie]

Surely it should not all be about growth but sustainability, every time one listens to an economist talking they mention growth, in my book there are two ways of achieving that, firstly by increasing individual productivity and secondly by flooding the market with cheap labour! The problem with the latter is that cheap labour brings with it all the associated problems so frequently hi lighted with the gig economy. Likewise unbridled growth brings additional problems of infrastructure and social care, We are also guilty of making credit too freely available giving people an opportunity to live well beyond their means. All of this is as a result of out of control growth which inevitably leads to a fall, The only difference between labour and Tories is the fact that if inpower the Labour Party would become the prime borrowers on our behalf which would have the same effect and lead to austerity yet again! So how about a law stating that all folks must live within their means? Those that do are currently threatened with being penalised to help those who cannot.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

It is, they'll head for the Republic of Ireland, cross the border in to NI then hop it over the Irish Sea.

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Not as much RORO traffic from mainland Europe direct to Ireland for refugees to smuggle themselves onto lorries.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Totally agree Archie but it’s not only individuals who live beyond their means - the country has been doing so for decades, driven by politicians who offer more and more simply to be elected.

There was an item on one of the ‘news’ programs recently in which people were asked how they felt extra money for public services should be raised.  They had three choices, “Businesses pay more tax”, “People pay more taxes”, “Government borrow more”.  What nobody pointed out is that the bottom line is that it is always people who have to pay for these services.  If businesses pay more, prices go up, if the country borrows more the debt still has to be paid.  Despite this the choice with the least number of ‘votes’ was “people pay more taxes”.

If we want more services they have to be paid for by the people which can be achieved in one of two ways, those already contributing paying more or more people contributing.  The former results in a slow down of the economy the latter an increase in demand for public services.

[astrologica]

So Monsieur Macron now views the US as a possible future enemy? And wants a 'real' European Army..

Why did we (and the US) bother to save their sorry little a**ses?

[cee-dee]

So now we're faced with a fiasco? Is there going to be a leadership fight? David Cameron knew what was coming and did the right thing = get out of it while the going was good. No matter who "leads", there are those only too ready to stab the leader in the back. Et tu Jacob/Boris?

So now Macron and Merkel think they want a European Army eh? Well, Macron needs reminding about this:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_EuUcVD_pU&t=41s

I can see where this is all heading. They want to have another go! Next time ALL of France will be willingly collaborating? Next time they won't make the mistake of stopping at the channel.

[upthecreekyetagain]

One of the biggest successes of the EU is that there hasn’t been an armed conflict between two members since its inception. 

There are are very few alive today in the UK who have experienced the horrors of war - a period of 70+ years without conflict with any of our Western European neighbours is something that wasn’t achieved in the previous 500 years.

[aernethril]

Can we be sure that it is an EU success or more possible a combination of the threat of nuclear war, the need to repay the war debt by all countries and the recognition that trading was the way to go to create wealth, even if it has become obscenely bloated at the top.

The original EEC helped with that in part but it was ever the game plan to build the united states of Europe, to be controlled centrally and I very much fear from my own experiences that the UK was never considered to be a part of mainland Europe, so we have never been really accepted as a much greater part of it than the self-styled gang of 5 founding members of the EU.

[fallen-archie]

As Brexit continues to unravel, the Labour Party are exploiting it for their own ends, right wingers are ready to throw everyone under the bus and that leaves a few representing the majority. The EU is happy for us to continue all the infighting yet again they show how you can check out but you can never leave!
Who is representing us in the EU and why don’t they at least listen to the concerns of an island nation. I am so frustrated by the whole affair that I wish we could turn back the clock and try again. Why those who lost have been so aggressive I do not know people like reporter Carole Cadwallader who has pursued Arron banks like a rabid dog yet is unable to answer any questions concerning the remain campaign, or the way Nigel Farage is dissed for his every word! If we are to remain then let’s hope that some of the legitimate concerns expressed by both remainers and leavers are addressed, however if the EU continue to expand their influence over our everyday lives I doubt that will be the case.

[cee-dee]

I think that if Theresa May jacked the job in she'd sit back and thank her lucky stars the job was over, done with and finished.

I liken this brexit lark to a company trying to buy what wasn't for sale. The "seller" asks a ridiculously high price in the first place, then, after protracted "negotiations", eventually agrees terms.

The company negotiating team take back (to the board of directors and shareholders) the best deal they can come up with in the face continued opposition to ANY deal and they get a smack in the chops with calls for their immediate dismissal and claims that others "could do a better deal".

How the heck can you negotiate with people that really don't want to negotiate at all?

[right-then-petal]

How the heck can you negotiate with people that really don't want to negotiate at all?

Make Em An Offer They Can't Refuse

[cee-dee]

The whole deal then becomes a surrender to blackmail and ultimately not cost effective.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@right-then-petal wrote:

How the heck can you negotiate with people that really don't want to negotiate at all?

Make Em An Offer They Can't Refuse

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The EU don’t want a deal that doesn’t include the free movement of people and goods, most MPs, (both the Brexiteers and the Remainers), don’t want a deal - I’m not even sure that May wants a deal.

Nobody really wants to take on the reigns and be PM until the outcome is decided, neither within the Conservative nor Labour Party.

It’s just a total mess and no matter what happens from here on in it won’t be good for the UK.  I’m glad I’m not starting out on a career right now.