What if?

[cee-dee]

OK, so no-one wants to argue any more but what if.........................

A couple of years back referendum was called about either staying in or leaving the EU and the majority voted to leave. Since then arguments have raged back and forth and the remainers are agitating for another referendum.

What if they had another vote and this time the result was to remain BUT, then the leavers started agitating for another making claims for this, that or the other? Would the remainers claim "We had a democratic vote so that's that, we remain IN".

We had a democratic vote before though? The result of that was to LEAVE so if a second vote went the other way would any notice be taken of leavers wanting yet another?? If not, why not?

Shouldn't a vote on something be IT as regards any result not a cause for those who didn't like the result to agitate for another? Where does it end?

By that reckoning it could result in a parliamentry vote for a constituency which ended in a close vote for one person then having those opposed to then claim it was "close" so they demand another go? How many "go's" do you want?

[fallen-archie]

If I were starting out on a career, I would pursue things in the same way that I did many years ago concentrating on being good at what I do and seizing the opportunities that may arise. Nothing has changed nor will it if you have drive and enthusiasm.

[j_uk643]

I would agree there's not a huge appetite to seriously challenge May at this stage in proceedings, but times are volatile & circumstances changing

[j_uk643]

To an earlier tweet by others, I wasn't aware we had some WW2 veterans posting???

The defeat of Nazi Germany could hardly have been achieved without liberating Europe in general....that list misses out the then Soviet Union

We never forget the help the polish troops & pilots played in the defence of the UK both on the ground and in the air, because we are so welcoming to them today 

That view of growth is very limited & essentially wrong

If people & companies hadn't borrowed, ours & others economies would be tiny

As stated earlier Europe incl the UK have a long history of wars, which have cost millions of lives and missed growth, allowing the US after two world wars to dominate 

We are not formerly linked to the US anymore, but when they told us to stop re Suez, we stopped. A new world power had emerged

Independence is an illusion in political terms in those circumstances 

'another try' ....its a bit comicon

[cee-dee]

Well now, it's looking like no-one likes the brexit "deal" currently on the table? So, should we just tell the EU "We're off" and to heck with them?

They're portraying this supposed deal as having been "negotiated" by Theresa May but has she actually done ANY negotiating? Hasn't it all been done by some faceless bureaucrats who would have been doing it no matter who was (supposedly) "in charge"?

If, as expected the deal is rejected by Parliament, where do we go from here?

[fallen-archie]

I don’t know what happens next because too many people are pursuing their own agenda, too few are doing what is best for the country! What I would prefer to see is some kind of EU reform which respects the individual needs of its nation states rather than pursuing a do as we say line all the time! Mrs May is on a hiding to nothing at the moment and is being kicked by everyone involved within the debate, she is also ridiculed to the point of being the subject of hate speech such is her position at the moment! Labour meanwhile must also pursue a leave position as the EU would never allow its agenda to be put into practice! My biggest fear lies with messrs Corbin, McDonall and Abbott one has never had a proper job, the next has and failed miserably and the third is as thick as a plank. It demonstrates the lack of talent available within our parliament, whatever happens the outlook is bleak until we get better politicians and a country less divided!

[upthecreekyetagain]

I’m struggling through the 600npages of the proposed agreement, (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/7590...), and from what I’ve read so far I’m pleasantly surprised by how reasonable it seems.

Sure there are problems regarding Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Cyprus and the Channel Islands but I’ve not yet seen suggestions from anyone on how to deal with these whilst at the same time abiding by the ‘spirit’ of the referendum result.

On trade and the economy the proposal seems to be that we will keep open borders and everything that entails during the ‘transition’ period whilst at the same time being able to make trade agreements with other states which would come into force at the end of this period.

All in all I don’t see how we could expect a better deal than the one being proposed unless there is something hidden in the last couple of hundred pages that I’ve not got to yet!

[cee-dee]

You're absolutely right about those pursuing their own ends. They're supposed to be representing the views of their constituents but far too many of then seem to think that they've been elected to vote for "what they think is good for them".

Theresa May is in an impossible position, whichever way she turns she's in a no-win situation.

You're also right about some of those in Parliament who have only followed th course of School, College, University" and have never held any sort of responsible job and think that they "know it all". As with local Councillors, it should be a condition of application that they've made some sort of impact in a "proper" job before being allowed to enter the Political heirarchy.

[cee-dee]

Good luck with ploughing through that lot! I've not read it and have no intention of so doing.

My opinion (for what it's worth?) is that we should leave FIRST and make deals AFTERWARDS!

Some of the things we've agreed over time with the EU are fine, others are not. Also, we are and always will be (unless the seas retract!) an independent island nation and should have our own rules without interference by faceless bureaucrats from Brussels, Luxembourg or Strasbourg!

Finally, I ask again, how can you negotiate with those who've made it clear they only want to dictate, NOT negotiate?

[upthecreekyetagain]

So you would like us to leave without any sort of deal.  Total madness.

That would mean that come 11pm on March 29th next year planes from the UK couldn’t land in EU countries - goods would be stuck at border crossings in both directions - cooperation between security organisation in the UK and EU would stop - access to EU trade, standards, criminal databases would end.  The list could go on and on. 

There has has to be some sort of deal even in a no deal Brexit.  The deal being proposed appears to be very much a ‘minimum’ deal Brexit with the basic structures continuing during the transition period allowing deals by the UK with the EU and the rest of the world to be worked out - not only in terms of trade but also immigration/emigration, transport, security, health, etc.

I wonder how many of our esteemed politicians haven’t read the full terms of the proposed deal either and yet are keen to vote it down just to achieve their own objectives.

[cee-dee]

There's no reason for such awkwardness except to BE awkward.

[fallen-archie]

In answer to your question creeky I reckon most have scan read it at best, the labour group are only interested in regime change, where those on the right are Keen to see a capitulation of the EU, neither is possible! So we are left in a situation whereby there are virtually no politicians prepared to see this process through!
As I have said previously the vicars daughter is on a hiding to nothing despite her obvious leaning towards fairness, I think the only way to resolve this is to tell both parties to shut up and allow due process to take its course. The likelihood of that is zero.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Not sure what you are referring to - the EU are hardly being awkward.  We can’t have the benefits of being a member of the EU whilst not suffering the disadvantages.  

Of course it would be brilliant if we could remain in the Customs Union and at the same time be able to make our own trade deals with countries where we think we might do better.  Great to be in the Single Market yet not have to accept the associated cornerstone of the free movement of people.  Lovely to not be answerable to the European Court whilst our competitors in the EU are.  Be able to issue European arrest warrants but not have to accept ones raised by other countries.  To control fishing in our waters but allow our fishing boats to fish wherever they like in European waters . . . . . . . And so on and on and on.

Of course whilst we have all those advantages we wouldn’t be willing to pay into the European budget!

[fallen-archie]

You are right of course, we cannot expect to have the benefits of unrequited freedom of movement from within and without! We also cannot blame the Eu because people wish to come here and take advantage of our booming housing crisis! I know there are obvious advantages to be had within the nhs of free movement but why don’t we train up our own young people, rather than put things out of reach. Seriously there are real problems throughout the world and Britain doesn’t have all the answers, so without wishing to sound racist what can we do to improve the lot of those desperate to make a new life for themselves on our overcrowded island?

[cee-dee]

Just looking at the aircraft angle, why would a "No Deal" brexit affect aircraft landings? Planes from outside the EU land here and in the continental EU so why would British aircraft be subject to some sort of prohibition?

[joe_bloggs*]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Just looking at the aircraft angle, why would a "No Deal" brexit affect aircraft landings? Planes from outside the EU land here and in the continental EU so why would British aircraft be subject to some sort of prohibition?

---

https://www.fac.org.uk/how-will-brexit-affect-the-aviation-industry

“In a truly global industry, membership of EASA gives the UK access to markets across the world through internationally recognised safety standards. Leaving would be completely counter-productive and leave the aerospace industry facing total chaos.”

 Now, the UK has a choice if it wants to cause as little disruption to the aviation industry as possible: either make the EASA rulings binding by replicating them in its own aviation legislation, persuade other EU governments to allow a non-member to continue agency membership or seek the observer status held by Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein.

 The alternative? Crashing out of the EASA without  a deal or any World Trade Organisation rules to fall back on. Let’s hope they choose wisely.

[cee-dee]

It's looking like there's not a cat in hell's chance of the brexit deal getting through Parliament?

When..... it's all over and Theresa May is no longer PM she'll probably sit back and say "Thank goodness THAT'S all over"!!??

It's taking it's toll on her? First a pic from 2017 and then one take the other day:-

[astrologica]

She needs a new hairdresser CeeDee!  I don't think she's the type to get frazzled by all this Brexit stuff! I am puzzled by her stance....pushing her 'deal', answering questions with no real answers, just repeating her mantra. It's as if no -one has told her that it's likely to fail! She will find out soon, time is running out. What do you think will happen? And what would you like to happen?

[upthecreekyetagain]

I have a gut feeling that a deal may get through Parliament - probably wrong but if it doesn’t we will be in deep doo-doo.

[astrologica]

You could well be right ....the odd Peerage or Knighthood handed out here or there could well do the trick. All their true colours are beginning to show now. Gove? Fox?...all wanting to back this disastrous deal? Words fail me...well, there are a few, but I can't write them here!

[cee-dee]

This "deal" is the best they could come up with so how do you "negotiate" a different deal when (if?) the EU just won't budge another inch? If the "negotiations" were handed over to those who oppose the current deal, what would they be able to achieve that would be so vastly different and supposedly "acceptable"?

Anyway, just WHO actually did the "negotiating" for this deal, who was face to face with the EU side and would they (as faceless bureaucrats) be doing the negotiating all over again?

I've said before that you can't negotiate any further with those who don't really want to negotiate so just where would any future negotiations get us?

If you're trying to buy something that the "owner" doesn't really want to sell, the owner often asks some ridiculously high price to put you off. If you "negotiate", you get to a point where the owner digs his heeels in and says "No more, that's it, take it or leave it".

It really looks like the EU are saying "this is the only deal you'll get, take it or leave it"?