Welcome to the Great British Underclass

[fallen-archie]

I was chatting to a young lady who recently completed her teacher training and this week was inducted into the new Primary School where she will commence her chosen career. The school is multi cultural and located in West Yorkshire, it is a deprived area but by no means as bad as some inner city areas. Despite this around 90% of the childrens parents are welfare dependent. Most of the children have been labelled as having some kind of lerning difficulty reading standards among eight year olds is expremely poor.

The young Teacher who comes from a middle class background with a strong work ethic is the only member of the family not to be following a medical career, she has always wanted to Teach and help young children.

So what was her verdict following the three days?

The majority of pupils appear to have no respect for authority in any form, Gentle persuasion is the order of the day and the children respond with a tirade of abuse and colourful language.Attempts to impose discipline inevitably result in a family visitation where the source of the colourful language is confirmed. The Head Teacher in conjunction with police and the education authority has introduced a code of conduct and special measures to protect staff from irate and often hostile guardians. What is clear is the children are being raised in a manner likely to confine them to state dependence in one form or another and deprive them of the opportunity to escape poverty. 

We have a young, committed new teacher, keen to get on, with talent and the drive to succeed faced with the uncertainty of a career dealing with feral kids and their often broken families who challenge her ability not by interlect but by threat of physical abuse. The Only beneficiary of this sad situation is Jeremy Kyle. 

Why is it that despite having a welfare state designed to ease poverty and an education system which is free to all we end up with an Underclass seemingly incapable or unwilling to grasp the nettle break away and get on? 

Will this new teacher tough it out or simply follow many others and seek an alternative career? 

[joamur_gosof]

OMG my spelling and grammar went out of the widow replying to cd lol  I would go back to school but I  hear it's  full of louty foul mouthed yobs so I don't fancy it 🙂

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@joamur_gosof wrote:

I dont think they are all a waste caution...I do at uni college level but I think they are great at junior and high..exactly what I want to see more of..options for the working world for all capabilities

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Yes, I meant as university options.  No point getting into debt for a qualification that isn't going to improve your life chances, IMV.  

[Anonymous]

My first secondary school was small. Probably the size you mentioned.

The Science teacher taught 3 subjects: Chemistry, Physics and Maths. We had 2 Dutch language teachers and they also taught History.
The other language teachers just taught one, English, French and German.
One teacher taught Book keeping.
Then there was PE of course, and craft work. A bit sexist in those days as the boys did metal and woodwork and the girls things like jewellery making and textiles.

The school had a nice feel to it. As you said mentioned it created more of a community. I also think the teachers got to know their pupils better as only they taught us for the 4 years we would be there. Supply teachers were a rare thing. If a teacher was ill, the headmaster would stand in. Not that he knew every subject of course, but he would make sure we were carrying on with the work the teacher was in the middle of. He was a real nice guy, strict enough, but always fair. The kids respected him for that.

Later I went to a much bigger school and that intimate feeling went out of the window and there were a lot more teachers which changed every year as you progressed, depending if they were qualified to teach higher or lower classes.

I myself felt happier in the smaller school, so maybe a lot of kids would.

[Anonymous]

splitting the curriculum into academic schools and practical schools from after primary is a way forward.

I agree.

When I was a kid that was the case in Holland. Not sure if it still is.

Children that were not as academically gifted could go after primary school to what they would call then the Low Technical school for boys, where they could become electricians, plumbers, joiners, bricklayers etc...and they also had the opportunity to go higher up if they had it in them, so next was the Middle technical school and they could even go after that to the Higher technical school.

Not that many did, but I did know a guy I was at school with who did it. Sometimes kids are late starters and this system did give them at least an opportunity to grow at their own pace.

For the girls there was what they called the Household school. Again a bit sexist, but it was a different time. Girls would learn everything from cooking, making clothes, looking after children, typing and things like that. So the boys learned a trade and the girls could go into childcare, clothing industry, food industry and that kind of things.

Then there were three more options above that level. It again depended on the ability a child displayed. The MAVO was the lowest level and would take 4 years and it would give you the basic skills for basic jobs, then the HAVO, this was the middle level and took 5 years, from there on you could get into higher professional education and then the VWO, which was the highest level and took 6 years. This last one you would need to get into University.

Again you could work your way up. Again ideal for late starters.

The system in Holland has changed a bit, but as far as I know it is still mainly the same.

[joamur_gosof]

That sounds exactly the way to go Harry.. ..Chartered engineers are amongst the best paying and most qualified jobs in the world, so as you say there are nights to reach in any class/

I also remember the nice feel to my primary and junior schools in the way you did to yours..

I feel creeky has a fundamental point in the same repect as smaller classes..Malac mentioned it too ..Its the parents reponsibility to not have more children than can be afforded by the mass. and themselves

Of course there is your culprit to problems ...I however also feel this country is not overcrowded or overburdened by the home grown  (but is by a few)...so another step in education would be to start there at educationg maths of people...the reason would be to teach to see breaking points and also underhand cheats (in all )

More in more out is installed as a respect for effort not as a monetary advantage over someone else.

and lastly 'NO finger pointing'' or you get a hat and stood in a corner to think about it 🙂

[Anonymous]

Over population is of course a strain on everything and the influx of foreigners does create an extra set of difficulties for schools and teachers. Children that do not speak English will need extra help to get up to speed, it might stop progression for the other children that don't have that problem. There will be extra teachers necessary to give the foreign children help, which of course cost money.

So what would be the ideal solution to such a problem, or is there none?

I remember in the past a lot of people in Holland kicked off about this as their own (Dutch) children ended up not progressing as fast as they should as a lot of the attention went to the foreign children. I don't know the ins and outs (I already lived here), so don't know what solutions they came up with. Dutch people were taking their kids out of schools for these reasons...if they could find one that didn't have the same problems.

Would it be a good idea to first teach foreign children, say for a year or so,  just English before putting them with the other children in a class? It does mean these children would loose a year of education on other things, but would it not be to everyone's advantage?

[cee-dee]

What comes to mind is the following:-

You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

[Anonymous]

I know we can't CD, but the whole point is to try to come up with something which could make most people happy.

So what do you suggest could be done regarding the none English speaking children, which might make it easier on teachers.

[joamur_gosof]

The first thing that comes to mind is sack all mps and use the money to open new schools and employ more teachers,t(cut out the middleman) that wont happen, so we need to ask the people who want to come here to live how they want to do it...looking at some schools their answer is get rid of the hosts kids as they slow us down :or are foul mouthed.

We can only write to mps to hammer the gov committee to do what we want ,at the end of the day if 3 people write to them a year they have no clout...so the statement does read what cd put...however it should and could read... if all of the people all of the time then that's what will happen.

ps heights not nights up ^^^ there ,reaching new nights doesn't make sense surprisingly 

[Anonymous]

Hello

.I am speaking from experience in having hapless well meaning teachers not doing anything to stop the children being children......By that I mean ,the teachers did not teach the children to respect each other and that is a vital part of education.....now you say the parents should do it,and your right they should,but when your child is forced into the education system of having to be around 500 other kids 5 days a week and the school is not doing what I say ,,,then the worst can happen and does happen.

So what you are saying really is that a teacher teaching 35 kids in a class (without any support such as a teacher assistant )  with various problems or not 

• the gifted ones
• the middle one
• the one who have Special Educational Needs
• the one who do not want to earn period

has to on top of making sure:

• the children learn
• behave
• listen to the lesson
• deal with bad behaviour

needs also to enthuse the students &  I quote " the teachers did not teach the children to respect each other and that is a vital part of education." = manners/politeness & the list goes on

• That tells me that yo have not ever taught in schools & dealt with 35 kids in a classroom trying your best to achieve your targets in the midst of dealing with
• discipline
• 3 different groups of children with different aptitudes
• pressures from your Head of Department
• pressure form the OFSTED = these people have not ever taught in a class
• the Principal

Government(s) ( not ever taught in a class either ) have changed the rules over & over & what do they know ?

Not all kids are meant to go to University  & instead of taking the time to assess kids to see where their strength lies they are made to learn subject(s) that is not conducive to their aptitudes

I was a teacher for many years &  can tell you that I did my up-most to infuse interest in teaching my subjects & did not have the time to teach my kids to be "polite" as was too busy dealing with real problems in the class "unruly behaviour " that was a detriment to the one(s) in the class that wanted to learn

My Parents were the one to teach me to be polite/strive at school & if I was unruly  which I was at times then dad would be the one to deal with me & make sure that this type of behaviour did not re-occur at school

Some teachers that I have met during my time teaching were indeed not meant to be teachers as they lacked the strength & vision to enthuse kids to learn (shown in their lessons plan) that I as a teacher found very boring thus why some kids were misbehaving 

When I walk into my class I always made the point to remember that once upon a time I was indeed a child & did not like school especially certain subjects & yes certain teachers & found that I was being disruptive in the class due to being bored or no help from the teacher especially in my Math class

S in all each parents /teachers have to

• infuse manners =parents
• knowledge = teachers

in their best capacity & with whatever tools the have at their disposition

Hope this helps also

[Anonymous]

Well that outlines exactly the battle we have on our hands. Too much red tape, classes too large, a government that keeps changing the system, etc....and it's too much for a teacher to deal with. I agree.

What can teachers do to make changes in the system? Can they maybe do something collectively to give the system an overhaul? I'm sure most want all this to change. Do you have any suggestions?

[Anonymous]

Hello

Teachers in the past & for many years have indeed shown their displeasure/malcontent as the way the rules have changed regarding teaching by either complaining to their Teaching Unions & other means such as meetings & such

I do not have the answers Harry but can assure you that being a teacher is not a walk in the park

I disliked being told how to teach my subjects in the light that I was like so many other teachers even after school

• overloaded with paper-work
• correcting pupils works
• 3 set of lessons plan to make every day
• how to improve my skills by people who did not have a clue ( never taught that is)

I suppose that for once  the Government needs to hear & listen to teachers & parents that is for sure

I truly disliked the system has it was = league table yeah & my cat has a long beard

I felt hopeless & very frustrated that I could have an Offsted officer in one of my classes telling me how I could improve my teaching skills in the light that that officer when asked the question

• "Have you ever taught in a school such as this one with 35 kids most from deprived background or with Special Educational needs & not speaking the language " & of course her response was " No " = I could have  cried really

So not sure how it can be changed for the best/highest good of all concerned ?

Hope this helps also

[joamur_gosof]

I have not taught a class of 35 kids no...and if I wanted to be paid for doing so and in that system I cannot fulfill my job role (ie the unruly one) I would do something about it...if I could not then I would leave and never have kids unless I could home tutor....where  I could fuse the teacher parent role .

Do not misunderstand my understanding of the teaching profession though ,as I myself said (seeing as your quoting me)  ' it just my opinion based on personal experience' My personal experience says teachers could do more in the way of continuing the parent polite kid mode in all kids ....this I see as A PRIORITY ...for the reasons ..

1 the teacher gets paid 

2 the teacher understands that getting paid means having kids 

3 the parent has to send the kids to a school to teachers

On gov interfere well read my posts.

I seem to have mainly hit a divide point in whos role is whos...I will clear what I think up here..

the parent is polite curtious and mannered as an example to the children...the teacher teaches knowledge if the children want that knowledge.

If an individual child decides to become unruly that is the childs decision ..they are not robots that will follow rules if they are put into a situation they crave to not be in.

No parent or teacher in a divided controlled 'you must'' situation can help//so its all about the two groups of grown ups here isnt it...one is responsible as they brought the child to the world as it is and the other as they take money..if that is broken then the adults need to put that right...but cannot as media encourages rebelling by showing the children constantly what they have not ,without showing how to get it and the government sticking its oar into something that apart from wanting control is doing harm.

TV used to take education as serious as the parent and teacher and so did the govs....now finger pointing at a group to blame ....well let me see ...err all of the above and none of them . 

[Anonymous]

Hello

its all about the two groups of grown ups here isnt it...one is responsible as they brought the child to the world as it is and the other as they take money

So you believe that being a teacher is about the salary/ money ?

I became a teacher at some point in my life not for the money but because I truly wanted to teach & share my knowledge & "joy de vivre " to all kids

I also became a Special Educational needs teachers as I could & had the strength & interest in helping these kids in learningskilss & broadening their view of life /interests

I did not become a teacher for the salary that in my opinion did not equal all the hard work/frustration/verbal abused &  others but again for the love it !

.if that is broken then the adults need to put that right...but cannot as media encourages rebelling by showing the children constantly what they have not ,without showing how to get it and the government sticking its oar into something that apart from wanting control is doing harm.

It is not my fault or teachers fault or others for that matter but the media & Government!   I would love to see you teaching in a class with 35 children with no help under all the above ( refer to my earlier post ) & then tell me how it feels really to be a teacher & if happy with the salary also

Are you a qualified teacher or not by the way ?? = a simple yes or no will suffice

Hope this helps

[cee-dee]

It your pay was doubled, what difference to your teaching would that make? (Apart from you being better off of course).

[Anonymous]

Hello

It your pay was doubled, what difference to your teaching would that make?

My pay was used to sponsor myself as an Aid Worker for many years Overseas thus was not lucky enough to have this happened when I was a teacher

However I  taught here & Abroad & the salary I got did help in using it to worthwhile causes close to my heart

However & again I decided to become a Qualified teacher because I loved it & still love working with kids/teenagers & of course a little extra cash would have been great but not the reasons why I started teaching

Hope this answers your query

[Anonymous]

OK, so we all agree that the parents are the main ones to instill manners into their children.

The teachers should continue to make sure this will be maintained and continued at the schools.

But society's role in this must be equally important. so positive input from media and government is needed.

I don't believe a higher salary will make anyone perform any better than they are able to. No one will....just look at bankers..hahahaha

A mountain climber will not get to the top of Mount Everest because he gets a bigger price. It's about motivation, ability and proper support. If that is undermined you get a problem.

[cee-dee]

No it doesn't. what difference to your teaching would it make?

[Anonymous]

Hello

Money has not & won't ever be what drives me or has driven me to do the jobs I have done & 100% loved doing them  !

No amount of money will make me love being a teacher/Aid Worker & other profession I have had through my life up to  now  & no amount of money will make me strive for excellency in one of my chosen career(s) throughout my life also  = simple really

You cannot buy e :

• the job that you truly love with money/high salary
• a person

unless I live in a different planet that yours ?

Hope this at last answers your query