Welcome to the Great British Underclass

I was chatting to a young lady who recently completed her teacher training and this week was inducted into the new Primary School where she will commence her chosen career. The school is multi cultural and located in West Yorkshire, it is a deprived area but by no means as bad as some inner city areas. Despite this around 90% of the childrens parents are welfare dependent. Most of the children have been labelled as having some kind of lerning difficulty reading standards among eight year olds is expremely poor.

The young Teacher who comes from a middle class background with a strong work ethic is the only member of the family not to be following a medical career, she has always wanted to Teach and help young children.

So what was her verdict following the three days?

The majority of pupils appear to have no respect for authority in any form, Gentle persuasion is the order of the day and the children respond with a tirade of abuse and colourful language.Attempts to impose discipline inevitably result in a family visitation where the source of the colourful language is confirmed. The Head Teacher in conjunction with police and the education authority has introduced a code of conduct and special measures to protect staff from irate and often hostile guardians. What is clear is the children are being raised in a manner likely to confine them to state dependence in one form or another and deprive them of the opportunity to escape poverty. 

We have a young, committed new teacher, keen to get on, with talent and the drive to succeed faced with the uncertainty of a career dealing with feral kids and their often broken families who challenge her ability not by interlect but by threat of physical abuse. The Only beneficiary of this sad situation is Jeremy Kyle. 

Why is it that despite having a welfare state designed to ease poverty and an education system which is free to all we end up with an Underclass seemingly incapable or unwilling to grasp the nettle break away and get on? 

Will this new teacher tough it out or simply follow many others and seek an alternative career? 

 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

The teachers try very hard,

 

but when they are being undermined at every turn by the attitude these people have, it is impossible to instil decent human values

 

when you are given a torrent of foul language and abuse (from the children and the from the parents) every time you try to check the behaviour

 

When the school has the parents backing them up children do learn to respect each other,

 

when the child goes home and tells the parent 'teacher says' and the parents reply with *** what the teacher says

 

you are fighting a losing battle.

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

I expect exactly what you expect ,that child kicked out of the school my children go to...so no red tape..there can not be a parent who can argue that having no respect in their child is in the right. 

 

The system needs good teachers to stand firm as parents against the nonsense...why let nonsense influence the important education of children creeky...I have a great deal of admiration for teachers in todays schools ,it must be so trying and hard when one simple step can resolve it,but can I dare I ......so there you go govs and not real teachers ,coupled with a minority of not real parents and boom.

 

Bin it all..then let teachers who like the idea to get parents to agree 🙂 those who dont want academic open practical schools as national institutes

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

We have got so used to this losing battle we have forgotten how to stand together and fight for right...accepting the next whim of whatever prune pretends he/she is  important ..thats fine against grown ups ,we can choose ..kids are forced into this system..the teachers are not ...so I ask again who is responsible as a group for the problems faced and who has a responsibility to correct it.

 

No individual group thats for sure ..so finger pointing out and get together in ..its the kids we are talking about .

 

 

Wont happen because .........answers on a postcard 🙂

 

 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

footnote footnote haha  I don't really have admiration for teachers in the respect they are following rules they know do not work and take home pay for that...I do admire the coviction of real teachers though and I have met a few ,and the poor boogers were at their wits end lol

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass


@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

So, if I understand you correctly, you say that teachers should be teaching children a moral standard you agree with even if such a standard is not what the parents of those children want them to follow.  How are they supposed to do that without coming into conflict with those parents?

 

When teachers attempt to exclude children who do not comply with the expected ethos of the school they are obstructed at every step.  In practical terms I just don't know what you expect them to do. 

 

At school, "Johnny, you should not call me a cow" - at home, "Your teacher is a cow, you tell her". - Who do you expect the child to listen to?


And finally as this subject cuts me up..apologies.I misunderstood ,I thought I read the kid called teacher.....but yes on that I agree with your parents causing it . Teachers are not helpless human beings though are they and I am certain if the kid does act like that then  the parent wants addressing (if not I would refuse to have my children in that school)  and if the parent comes a swearing ..phone the police as it is a criminal offence now so I find that hard to believe it can happen on more than 2 occations.

 

Lastly my point is the onus is on all involved because children do have their own minds as well (a forgotten history) and I disagree and am not advocating a return to dictatorships in schools as most kids are a credit ...a new system needs to be implimented and parents and teachers are the ones to agree there. anyway its only an opinion based on my experience ,but thank you for imput its always well recieved here .

enjoy the day 🙂

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

Schools are like set up as they are because it is the cheapest way of mass control.  Of course, lumping a thousand or more pre-teens and adolescents together is going to be fraught with problems, but to organise a system that put a child's developmental needs first would cost more than society is willing to pay.

 

Many children see no point ... and, frankly, they've got that right.  There is no point engaging with education if it can't give you life chances.  What a waste of effort!  Social mobility through education is at an all time low, and likely to get lower.  These kids can't get to university, so they can't compete with the 50% who can.  If they did manage to take on the debt, they can't afford to work in an unpaid internship afterwards, so they can't compete with those who can.  And so on, and so on.  If all that is ahead is unemployment or at best a zero hr's contract, why bother?  They are doing the rational thing by rejecting the "opportunity" to get half a dozen GCSEs if these can't be "exchanged" for anything meaningful.

 

Teaching is an incredibly challenging job (trust me on this hmmmmm), but teachers cannot achieve much against the flow of society.   Teachers are not to blame for how society is set up or how it operates.  They just do their best with what is.

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

Anonymous
Not applicable

I do believe that teachers nowadays have a harder job.
A lot of red tape is involved nowadays. They have to produce more paperwork than the woods can manage. That they still have time to teach is sometimes a miracle. Some go for the job as it gives a lot of holidays and the pay isn't too bad, but lots of young adults I know who want to become teachers want to make a difference.


My future son in law is a teacher now at a school which has a bad reputation. He did teach for a while in a private school and he told me that the differences in the attitude of the students are miles apart.
He said it was easy to teach at the private school. The kids were polite, did their work, worked hard to get top grades and looked presentable. At his present school he has been attacked, threatened, sworn at, by students and parents. He's touch enough to handle it all, but it frustrates him as he so wants better for these kids.


He does have a the ability to keep the balance between being understanding and caring and putting his foot down when needed, but the restrictions nowadays on teachers to discipline the kids do play a  big role in the whole situation. Their hands are often tied.


He mentioned that the children in the private school were being pushed by their parents to perform well. They were being brought up more strict and were expected to end up at University, followed by a decent career. Of course there is more to it. The classes were small, so more one to one attention. These kids had all the support they could get as money was never an object. They were well fed; not some nasty school dinners without any nutrition whatsoever or chippy for their tea. They had money for after school activities, like sports or music lessons, keeping them off the streets. After the holidays all of them would have been abroad to further their horizons, and not to Benidorm.


So they do come from a different world. They do not have to fight for survival as some of the less privileged children have to. It breeds a different attitude a different mentality.


Overcrowded classrooms, the amount of children that have learning difficulties nowadays (tested or not...) or language barriers don't help the situation. Teachers are not trained to deal with all that, they are trained to teach a subject. They are not counsellors, they are not multi lingual, they are not multi cultural experts, not super humans, and no one can expect them to be.


As I said earlier, it's not one thing that needs to change, it's a whole lot of stuff.


When I was a kid, you was brought up not only by your parents, but by your whole community. This meant that a neighbour would tell you off if you did something wrong, a grandparent would give you a clip around the ear when you wasn't polite etc...It wasn't just the parents role or that of the teachers, it was the society around you that had a lot to do with how you grew up and it was accepted by everyone in those days. It didn't mean there were no bad apples, there always were and always will be.


If you tell a child off in the street now for littering, you do take the chance of getting a mouth full of abuse, while when I was a kid you was afraid that a neighbour would tell your parents...as you knew you would be in trouble if they did.


So then we come to changing values. In a changing world, values will change and I'm sure we are all aware of that. Also the values of every group in society are different, as their needs are different.
Now to cater for all these needs would become impossible, so set rules have to be implemented.
And there we get into problems. Every group could have their objections as they might feel it doesn't apply to them and they don't need to adhere to those rules. So how do we solve this?
Add an army of special needs teachers, counsellors, dietitians, police in the school yard?
All this is already being done and I personally don't see any improvement (not as yet anyway).


So what can we do as a society as a whole to make changes that would benefit all? Because isn't that what we are all aiming for?
Cutting benefits isn't the answer, it just creates a bigger gap and makes people desperate. Wars are fought all over the world because of it. Desperate people do desperate things.


So maybe we can put our heads together (instead of being at loggerheads) and look what can be done. We have an intelligent and diverse crowd on here, so lets brainstorm a bit (more) and see if we can agree to some things that can be done to create a better situation for all involved. Everyone has already given some personal opinions, but maybe we can come up with a clear list that works for everyone. Lets try to walk in someone else's shoes and see it from all perspectives, not just our own. Who knows, we might come up with the Holy Grail for a peaceful society. Smiley Happy

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

In the end, it all comes down to discipline and that's for the teachers and parents as well as the kids.

 

Why should "everyone" expect to "go to university" if they're "not good enough"?

 

The old way was primary school (often a village school) divided in to "infants" and "juniors". In towns, it was an Infant school and a separate Junior school.

 

Next it was either Secondary Modern or Grammar school. From there, you went on to either Technical College or University.

 

Other ways have been tried now and they're failing, well, they have failed. They've failed the system and they've failed the kids. It's time for a rethink on school sizes (too big at the moment) and locality (too far to travel for some kids).

 

It's time for a rethink on discipline for everyone plus a reintroduction of respect for others and for property.

 

Before anyone claims "the jails are overflowing".... take out the persistent offenders who're "back in again" after a short time and see what the jail population is like then? Persistent offenders need proper punishment to disuade them from offending again, not having the attitude "they won't catch me next time" when of course, they do!



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

Anonymous
Not applicable

Ok, lets make this list then. Step for step.

 

Starting with smaller classes and smaller schools would be a good idea. Easier to manage, easier to get a closer relationship between teachers and students. Easier to get to. Any other advantages?

 

 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

It's not that everyone should go to Uni, CD, but by making it something around 50% of school leavers now do do, those that don't have their life prospects further whittled away.  

 

What is needed is meaningful employment opportunities.  Now, it is way cheaper to keep people on benefits than create these, which is why we have the situation we do.  If there is a "forgotten" group, so what ... as long as that doesn't impinge too much on the "haves".   It is seen as the acceptable downside of capitalism.  

 

I don't believe it is about schools and schooling per se.  It is just "blaming" teachers or parents or the children themselves is easy and simple and media-friendly ... and jolly convenient for those who want no change. 

 

 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass


@Anonymous wrote:

Ok, lets make this list then. Step for step.

 

Starting with smaller classes and smaller schools would be a good idea. Easier to manage, easier to get a closer relationship between teachers and students. Easier to get to. Any other advantages?

 

 


Class sizes of around 24 are the ideal, according to most research studies.   Private schools tend to go smaller than this, but as you have pointed out, the children are different in a number of respects (motivation, parental support, money for extra curricula interests).

 

Smaller schools would work better - around 750-800 for secondary children.  You would lose something in terms of the breadth of expertise on offer because you would have fewer teaching staff, but you would gain a lot by way of "community" feel.

 

 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

I did not suggest I think teachers were to blame for everything  caution I just said they had a responsibility and if the school yards are yobbish teachers are to blame for not standing up for what is right and doing what needs to be done.If parents get involved in the yobbish then the police are there to deal with that.

 

Education is not purely academic in my opinion,education is all things ..I know teachers are not social workers but now schools employ mentors who as near as damn it are ,so why the behaviour problem ...someone is not doing their job and that can lead to the worst .  I agree fully to your reasons of why its all run like this ...so we all have a responsibility to change that.......which leads nicely to harry.

 

I have said from the off finger pointing is not in my agenda. I may not be very good at making my points clear as I do tend to juggle things up per post .so

 

yep Harry thats a good one ,I also think splitting the curriculum into academic schools and practical schools from after primary is a way forward.

 

Disagree with Cd saying ''if your not good enough why should you go to uni''  Not good enough CD ?  and at what ? ...hence undervaluing people from the off. Your not clever like me so your worth nothing is it ?

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footnote Tony Blair swept all aside mainly because he promised everything would be spent on fair education or as he put it ..education education education...LIAR .....someone take his british passport off him please .

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

It's not simply "worth" as in valued, it's worthy. That is, your work ethic and performance show's you're worthy of a place at university because you've demonstrated that you have the capability to take advantage of the situation and every likelihood of achieving degree status.



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

CD, work ethic is something you can "catch".  Bit like measles.  Much harder to "catch" it if none of your peers have it.

 

 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass


@joamur_gosof wrote:

I did not suggest I think teachers were to blame for everything  caution I just said they had a responsibility and if the school yards are yobbish teachers are to blame for not standing up for what is right and doing what needs to be done.If parents get involved in the yobbish then the police are there to deal with that.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I so agree ... in theory.  My experience suggests it is much harder in practice.  Yobbish school yards and corridors and classrooms should be tackled, for the good of everyone involved, but I know how incredibly difficult it is to do in reality.

 

 


 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

Thinking about University degree courses, what's the point of some of these?:-

 

Robin Hood Masters Course.

 

Harry Potter and the age of illusion.

 

Football culture.

 

Wild writing.

 

Psychology of Exceptional Human Experiences (it's about ghosts I think)

 

How to train in the Jedi way.

 

Holistic management and natural horsemanship.

 

Food nutrition and music. (Eh? Wossat?)



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

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Absolutely no point ... except the kids doing them are creating employment for higher education institutions and taking on debt which creates profit, rather than claiming benefits.  Students are cash-cows, and the more that can be hoodwinked into believing the "you must get a degree" mantra, the better the profit margin for landlords, money lenders, etc. 

 

It's a con ,,, and a whole generation have been taken in. 

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Re: Welcome to the Great British Underclass

  See cautions post ..the early stage is appalling for letting the kids down ,its a melting pot to syphon the point your making....as the rest of the persons  life is then bracketed into....

 

. I am all for more in more out so ok fair point  there so where are the options to put more into what your good at ?

 

It all boils down to environment and adolescence and brain power...so lets sat.we are all bachelor's  with honours  (doesnt happen does it its whose fault again ? )...I know for a fact some kids try there very hardest and best to achieve and do well and fit in but no matter how long spent with them they cannot grasp it ....where is the education system for them ?

 

Split it up first is what capable of years and what enjoy...then its off to study along those lines ..money and better kinda dont fit into it all though now .

 

 

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I dont think they are all a waste caution...I do at uni college level but I think they are great at junior and high..exactly what I want to see more of..options for the working world for all capabilities

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