17-02-2015 3:13 PM
17-02-2015 4:01 PM
british tax payer pay em next to nothing ,holland and germany pay em a fair bit......the greek people didnt get themselves into this mess Eurozone got them into this mess so even the greeks relying on greeks for incomes and food cannot get paid.
I fully support the greek revoloution and wish them all the very best in breaking free from the 'Owner of people,gestapo' and I very much hope they leave the EU and live happy being greece.
As for the argument they owe Germany money..well lol as the new guy says ..give us back all your country stole in the war and compo ffor bombing the chit out of the place to get rid of hitler..rendering the greek people as penniless farm hands.
Then hopefully onwards and upwards accross the whole .........
18-02-2015 1:01 AM
We would be in the same doo-doo as Greece now if the (taxpayer funded) BBC led "we must join the euro currency" campaign had succeeded. The current chaos in Greece (soon to spread more widely) was all forecast way back in the 1990's - fortunately one Gordon Brown was listening, even if Tony Blair never took off his Euro rose tinted euro spectacles:
www.community.ebay.com.au/Community-Spirit/greece/1703804#M459515
18-02-2015 6:34 AM
Financial loans to Greece
Please remember the overwhelming part of the previous loans given to Greece by the EU (btw not directly by the UK) went to
The New York, London, Paris & Frankfurt money markets, the Greeks saw little of it
So yet again, we are not helping the People we are giving it to the Banks/Money markets. (The same people who caused the 2008 crash in the first place)
18-02-2015 4:22 PM
18-02-2015 5:14 PM
By coincidence I was just looking at what happened to Iceland after all its problems about six years ago (remember they were bust!) - in simple terms they just put up two fingers and effectively seized the funds of foreign investors and still hold them until some future date - best known to themselves. The Icelandic economy is apparently growing well and it's cloaking the true extent of their debt. (In excess of 220% of GDP).
I'm no expert but Greece may go down a similar line - after all it's all about survival - and the Germans did not give a damn when it came to lending and ecouraging the Greeks to spend way beyond their means and purchase German goods in order to boost their own economy.
Two fingers to Merkel that's what I say!
18-02-2015 7:19 PM
At the heart of the matter are two defeated states that got together to orchestrate a plan to defeat the rest of Europe without going to war. They decided to concoct a plan to strangle the financial life-blood out of the other nations by creating the appearance of a rosy "Closed-Shop" where everything was simply fine so long as the bureaucracy was adhered to and it was made to look and sound SO good, all the other European states would clamour to join them.
The "conditions" for joining in were made difficult, not to mention costly so as to ensure that the fools that pressed on wanting to actually "join in" would think that it must be such a good idea that they'd join in at any cost.
Once in, some bait would be thrown in to keep the flock around the fold until such time as the Lambs were ready for the slaughter and the rest of the flock ripe for ripping off.
Somewhere along the line, the idea was promoted that it was much more profitable to make money WITH money rather than by that messy business of making things. It's MUCH more profitable to just buy (with borrowed money) and sell (putting off repayment as long as possible). However, the two conspirators ensured their manufacturing base continued........
Now we see that those making money with money (and nothing else) were effectively gambling and that's fine if you can afford to lose but those merchant bankers (!!!) were gambling with money belonging to someone else and had ensured that they'd also conspired to cream off a large slice of "the profits" for themselves but like all gambling, for winners, somewhere there has to be losers who have to pay up. When it came round for those merchant bankers (!!!) to pay up, they just shrugged their shoulders and walked away, it wasn't their money after all!
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
18-02-2015 7:29 PM
Thought I was reading Jefferson for a moment there cd.....where is that from please as its basically all true ..or is it your own words ?
Good stuff though and Its time to re negotiate our own debt.
18-02-2015 7:31 PM
18-02-2015 7:33 PM
It's all my own thoughts. I was writing that under some pressure as I was answering 20 emails at the same time and could have said a bit more if I'd have thought of it at the time.
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
19-02-2015 12:33 AM
Never mind Greece, what about here? If anyone's interested..... stick with this......... Before bureaucracy got out of hand..... towns had a "Council" and a Chamber of Trade. Counties also had a Council which mostly dealt with more "Rural" matters.
Back then, the bin men called every week, the streets were swept clean by blokes pushing a bin-barrow with a shovel and a broom on it. Out in the countryside, there were funny little huts with a large box-barrow (like a small cart) and they were for "The Lengthsman" who kept the roads relatively clean and made sure large puddles didn't form by cutting a channel through the verge for the rainwater to run away.
In the town, "The Councillors" were mostly men who ran a business and the Council was closely allied to The Chamber of Trade. The Council ensured that essential services were maintained but had an eye on "The Rates" and their idea was "to keep the rates down". The Chamber of Trade tried to ensure that the towns were not overun by too many of the same sort of shops or those which might "lower the tone" of the town. You might look upon that as restrictive practice but it ensured that "everyone made a living" and everything you ever needed was on sale somewhere in the town.
Suddenly (!!!) there was an explosion of change, massive (usually horrible looking) buildings were constructed to house the huge increase in Council bureaucrats..... This was on a town and a county scale.
That gave rise to a new phrase, "The Public Sector". If you worked for "The Council" you were a "Public Sector Worker". Men (it was mostly men but there were women too) who actually did some work (Blue Collar Workers) were frowned on, looked down on and regarded as a nuisance but a necessary expense. The bureaucrats (White Collar Workers) were regarded as the cream and people to be looked up to.
Of course, in those massive buildings there just had to be a hierarchy...... This led to "Empire Building" and with it the accompanying high salary. (Such people didn't have wages, heck, that was for the riff-raff Blue collar workers).
Now if you were ever to become "a somebody", you needed friends higher up the money tree than you....
If you were already part way up, things worked out like this:-
You (mister B) thought you deserved more than you were getting so you approached your "high-up" friend (mister A) to see what he could do for you. Told that there were no vacancies at that time on the next step of your ladder, your friend asked to "Leave it with me and I'll see what I can do". After some thought mister A called mister B to his office and told him what he'd decided. Mister B had a department with 12 underlings so it was decided that the department was to be split in to two. Each department of 6 underlings would need a department head (mister C and mister D) and those two would need someone as head of them, = mister B.
So mister B then got a step up the ladder with an appropriate increased salary and two new department heads were needed but with less seniority and a lesser salary than mister B had been getting of course.
Now when something came in to mister B's departments requiring a senior decision, the underlings realised they couldn't make such a decision so it was passed to mister D. He realised he wasn't senior enought to decide so it was sent to mister C's department, The underlings again realised it required a senior decision so it was sent to mister C. He decided he wasn't senior enough to decide and knowing it had already been passed on from mister Ds department, he sent it up to mister B who made the decision as he would have done under the previous system.
That happened so much, it was realised it was all getting out of hand and those nuisances who didn't work "in the Public Sector" were getting wind of it and were getting restless so something had to be done....
Someone had the bright idea of paying Councillors "a nice little earner" so you got some more militant minded Public Sector oriented representatives who put themselves about as Public Sector servants who were going to ensure "The Public" got the services they deserved....... Some reorganisation was required....... Lots of those awful Blue Collar shirkers would have to go and those left would have to find ways of doing more work faster.......
Empire building was out but in came a different sort with more highly paid "Executives" who, of course have "Deputies" who have their own Deputies who have numerous underlings of one sort or another and the last time I saw any figures, there were over 600 of these "Executives" who earned MORE than the Prime Minister.
Now going back to Greece...... I see one of the demands by the European "financiers" is that Greece "reduce the Public Sector"...... It needs reducing here, it's got out of hand so start at the top and work down?
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
19-02-2015 6:13 AM
Surviving the the 2008 meltdown -
We hear a lot about Ireland and how they are the 'posterboy' of how it should be done, IE solving the woes caused by the financial crash
But something they don't tell you is that Ireland didn't solve their debt problem. They remortgaged it (with the help of their friends in the US), at the same time as enforcing swinging cuts on State help.
Like the non-coverage of UK anti-austerity demonstrations across the UK in the British media, the constant strikes/demonstration in Ireland are hushed up by the UK media as well.
So not a problem solved, but a problem deferred
Footnote
Remember Ireland 'The celtic Tiger' was the Tory model for how they wanted the UK economy to work, they kept banging on about this (now conveniently forgotten) while Brown was in power
19-02-2015 8:38 AM
@cee-dee wrote:
Now going back to Greece...... I see one of the demands by the European "financiers" is that Greece "reduce the Public Sector"...... It needs reducing here, it's got out of hand so start at the top and work down?
Absolutely right to reduce the Public Sector both in Greece, the UK and whilst we're at it, Spain as well. In fact everywhere in Europe, especially the newer entry countries.
Greece needs help to invest their Public purse more effectively. They have consistently wasted money through mismanagement and corruption. Their tax revenues are a joke mostly because of the prevailing black economy. Very little international investment, small working population - about 5 million, high pension payments etc. I don't see a way out of their problems particularly as Germany is very reluctant to contribute more finance with the situation as it is. The best the Greeks can hope for is a restructuring of their existing interest payments with a commitment to improve the public sector, all still very much in the balance.
19-02-2015 8:43 AM
al, you might find this link an interesting read (quite long) about Ireland.
Ireland have the advantage over Greece with their heavily subsidised multinationals, something Greece could do with, to go hand in hand with changes to get their economy moving...
19-02-2015 10:22 AM
Further to my posts above, the Public Sector "powers that be" don't care which party forms The Government so it's not a political issue even though that's often bandied about.
It used to be said that the old system enabled those involved with "the councils" to make decisions beneficial to them or even "line their pockets". In a small way, that might have happened but today, those in the Public Sector hierarchy do it in a most blatant way. They inveigle themselves a massive salary with extra benefits and organise a wonderful "final salary" pension too.
One such chap was on nearly £200,000 a year (plus benefits of course) and not satisfied with that had been taking cash payments in lieu of pension contributions so had to quit. He then got "severance" of nearly £300,000 and was revealed to have had a Porche on lease which cost the council several thousand more to end.
The current crop of Public Sector riders of the Gravy Train put anything done by those on the old system right in the shade.
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
19-02-2015 6:56 PM
I had a nice meal at a Greek restaurant yesterday.
We left without paying.
I'm sure it's what they would have wanted.
19-02-2015 7:07 PM
22-02-2015 12:10 PM
One of the concrete monstrosities I mentioned in #11 has bit the dust:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-31568894
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
22-02-2015 4:51 PM
@al**bear wrote:
Remember Ireland 'The celtic Tiger' was the Tory model for how they wanted the UK economy to work, they kept banging on about this (now conveniently forgotten) while Brown was in power
Yes, the concept of Ireland as a "CelticTiger", never rang true, even in Brown's days.