Tax Credits

[astrologica]

There seems to be a lot of controversy about the Government's intention to cut Tax Credits. The BBC have done a few items about this, choosing members of the public who are in receipt of these credits to appear and present their case and say how hard it would be for them. There was one lady who protested on Question Time last week, who was a mother of four or five children, and another this morning who had six children! Why do these women have so many children that they can't afford to keep? There is no excuse these days...birth control is readily available. I have never heard anyone challenge them as to why they have so many children, and who do they think is going to pay for them.  I have a cat...I would dearly love to give a good home to another one, but I have to take account of what it is going to cost to take care of another one, so I won't have one.  Maybe these women should think first before producing child after child. It is irresponsible to have them and then assume that the state will pay for them.

[evoman3957]

Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect World ( only too evident ) where companies/ firms / businesses; pay their employees enough money to be able to live without help from anybody else, something ( I'm sure ) all but a small minority would do.....if they could. The truth is that the "Wage" bill is always the highest outlay for most businesses and to increase that substantially, would decimate their profits. Not a bad thing, I hear some of you say, however businesses run to make profit & by making a profit; expand and therefore employ more people. The one thing that spoils ALL this, is the fact that we are only talking domestically; whereas trade now takes place on a WORLD stage. In that world, we have to TRY to compete with Countries like China, India & Brazil; where the wage bill is ( in some instances ) a QUARTER that of OUR average wage bill. Added to the fact, that their standard of lifestyle is quite a bit lower than ours; with goods, food and raw materials ALL being considerably cheaper than they are here. In some cases, you work or starve; because there's no benefits to be had and you live a standard that you can afford to pay for. Now, I'm not preaching the rights and wrongs of the way things really are; but in an unfair World that's the unfair, uneven playing field on which ultimately we are going to have to survive.

[*.*..lola..*.*]

There is no incentive for employers to pay higher wages

Or to employ people on permanent full-time contracts instead of zero hour or temporary contracts which mean employees have to rely solely on overtime to bump up their wages and receive no sick pay, holiday pay or maternity pay etc. disgusting!

[astrologica]

Facetious.

[bankhaunter]

I see you are a believer in the deserving and undeserving poor.

A dangerous road to go down.

[astrologica]

No BH...you ASSUME that I am a believer in the deserving and undeserving poor. I am a fervent believer in self responsibility, and that is vastly different.

[bankhaunter]

So those who don't exercise responsibility according to your standards, are the undeserving?

Those whose circumstances mean they cannot earn more than minimum wage, are not entitled to have a normal family life?

[astrologica]

Is it not true that for some people, their inability to earn more than the minimum wage is a direct consequence of their lack of responsibility?

[cee-dee]

Is it not true that for some people, their inability to earn more than the minimum wage is a direct consequence of their lack of ability?

[astrologica]

In some cases , yes, very true CeeDee.

[bankhaunter]

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@astrologica wrote:

Is it not true that for some people, their inability to earn more than the minimum wage is a direct consequence of their lack of responsibility?

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It might be or it could be the consequence of bad schooling, a lack of suitable jobs in their area or it might even be because they live in the wrong postcode.

[astrologica]

I was born in, and spent all my life in, the wrong postcode...it's probably one of the poorest in the UK. But that didn't prevent me from being responsible for my actions. If life gives you lemons..you make lemonade...you go with what you've got and make the best of it.....responsibly.

[bankhaunter]

So if the minimum wage is all they can hope to earn, they just have to resign themselves to never being able to find a partner and raise a family?

These days the wrong postcode can mean automatic rejection of job applications.

[suzieseaside]

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@astrologica wrote:

Is it not true that for some people, their inability to earn more than the minimum wage is a direct consequence of their lack of responsibility?

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I think that is a little harsh, except for perhaps a very small proportion of people.

. 

Where I live hundreds of local jobs - bar, cafe and restaurant work, shop assistants, hotel staff, care home helpers, etc. are often minimum wage.

Someone has to do all those necessary jobs and those that do them are neither irresponsible or lacking in useful abilities. 

Lousy pay coupled with high rents and house prices (thanks to a high proportion of wealthy second home owners who often only use their properties for 2 or 3 weeks in an entire year) make it very difficult for young people to manage.  It's impossible for them to ever hope to own their own place.

[fallen-archie]

Workers on the minimum wage fall into not one but many categories, for example, those studying part time, people nearing pension age who need to supplement their income, Those who are qualified but in a subject with few opportunities, those with little or no qualifications and so on, within each of these groups you will have good workers and bad, some who are grateful for having a job and others who are not. Likewise there are good employers and bad, some reward good workers, others exploit their commitment.

Suggestions that there is some kind of definite correlation between ability and earning power is utter nonsense. Yes there are the high acheivers who go to Oxbridge and who though well coached talent coupled with the right University and driven from birth, yes they usually succeed but there are thousands of highly willing, able and potentially high earners who cannot find their way into lucrative work.

The Market system relies on a large cheap workforce to generate wealth for a small elite. Just look at how wide the gap has grown between rich nation and poor.

Providing Tax credits and other benefits simply underpins a pay structure which has no relationship to the cost of living and particuarly housing which with rent support and council tax benefit keep home ownership out of the reach for millions of good hardworking people.

We might think we are better off and to a degree we are in a material sense but that flat screen HD Tv is constructed in another economy paying much much less than we do.

I support a basic living wage and an incentivised workforce whereby those who perform at a higher level can earn more and those who don't want to graft all day accept a lesser wage. Opportunity for all should be our aim.

[astrologica]

Suzie....I am aware of how hard it is for young people. I have four grandchildren, between the ages of 22 and 29. Two of them are going back to University to get more qualifications. Both are in long term partnerships. They both work to help keep themselves while they study. Neither of them have children, because they know that life would be hard for them and any children they might have. They don't want to be dependant on benefits, they want to have a good life and are prepared to work for it. They know that they cannot have it all.  My other granddaughter , aged 23, has just bought her first home with her partner. A very modest home, but they worked and saved for the deposit. She won't have a child for a few years because she doesn't want it to be brought up on benefits. How different life would be for them if they had irresponsibly had children without the means to keep them. And they know that things could change in the blink of an eye , so they want to work hard while they can. I agree that life can be very very hard for people these days, much harder than when we were young, but that is all the more reason to be responsible and not expect other people (the tax payer) to bail them out when they take on more responsibilities than they can manage.

[2017clearout]

The fundamental issue with tax credits, though, doesn't really have to do with deserving/undeserving or feckless/responsible: it functions as a ludicrous job creations scheme for the civil service - why on earth is the government taking tax from those with families on the minimum wage with one hand, and then giving them payouts with the other.  

Let's cut out the middle man, and just not take it off them in the first place: because by doing so, we end up subsidising (in the main) big businesses - like Tesco or MacDonald's - who pay poor wages.  They continue to make their shareholders profits, but that is because their wage bill is subsidised by us, the tax payers.  I'm fairly sure this sort of sharp practice used to get people doing time for fraud...

Absolutely, people ought to exercise personal responsibility, and I am certain that the vast majority of people do, in fact: that's why it's news when benefits' cheats get busted, or someone with 12 kids say that they and their partner aren't going to work.  They are the exceptions, not the rule.  I am certain the majority of people with kids would far rather not bring them up in relative poverty, live hand to mouth or worry about paying for uniforms, trips and birthdays etc.  I had a student who has a daughter (rather a surprise in his first year of study, for him and his wife) but is adamant that if they have another child, they will only have one: he grew up in a family of four kids, and saw how his parents struggled, and how they couldn't go on school trips etc because there was never the money - he's determined his kids will never have to miss out because there's not enough cash for too many kids: I honestly feel more people are like him than those who breed recklessly and indiscriminately.