So What's The Problem With Landfill or Plastics?!

[lambsy_uk]

So I see outside a sign for a waste disposal company espousing the virtue of taking nothing to landfill; so my question is what's the big deal about land-fill, what's the fuss about filling up some holes with waste? What's the problem.

Also, I hear people moaning about plastics because they take a long time to bio-degrade; "takes 400 years for such-n-such to bio-degrade" I hear them say; so my second question is So What? What's the problem if something doesn't biodegrade, what's all the fuss about?

Why is it such a big deal if with live on a planet with a smattering of holes full of plastic?

[lambsy_uk]

Yes I guessed the taxes had a big impact on cost of landfill. So what was determined to be so bad about landfill to justify such a tax?

[right-then-petal]

fuel and labouer

[jd.linklater]

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

Yes plastic is disposed of irresponsibly, as are many forms of rubbish, so the answer should surely be to reduce unnecessary materials of all types and do more to tackle littering.

Biodegradeable materials may help with this situation but remember my question was about plastics in landfill, why would a piece of plastic sitting in landfill for a few hundred years be a problem? The arguments I have seen hinge on the space they take up, having a limited amount of land. However if 1000 years of US landfill would only use up 35 square miles then surely space is not much of an issue, especially as even the plastics would biodegrade over this period of time.

I'd expect recycling to be the best option but if it comes to a choice of landfill or incineration it seems landfill may be the better option.

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Most of the synthetic plastics we use daily do not biodegrade, this is the whole problem with using landfill to dispose of them. The only thing that will break down plastics  is photodegradation ie they will degrade in sunlight. This is why the plastic plant pots you may have sitting on your patio will over time become thin and brittle. As they are broken down by sunlight the particulates that make up the plastic are released into the atmosphere or get washed into the soil when it rains, both are equally bad news for the environment.

This is also why the plastic that  is now ubiquitous throughout the world's oceans is slowly breaking down into microbeads. This is a very, very slow process, but even so, it has been going on for so long that it is almost impossible to pick up a handful of sand from a beach anywhere in the world without finding a large quantity of plastic particles amongst the sand grains.

This doesn't happen in landfill, sunlight can't act on plastics underground and there is nothing in soil that will have any effect on it's lifespan. So any plastic in landfill will still be with us in thousands of years time rather than hundreds. In short we are stuck with it.

We have the same problem dealing with plastic waste as we have with nuclear waste, there is still no storage process that is failsafe. The best solution we can come up with is to pack it into lead containers encased in concrete and bury it hundreds of feet underground, this is not a solution. All we are doing is passing the problem on to future generations and that is exactly what we are doing with plastics. What a terrible legacy to leave behind for our descendants.

I could go on.......

[vamo48]

A lot of plastics, notably the black plastic coverings farmers use on their hay bales, can be usefuly recycled into garden furniture which is vandal-proof and too heavy to steal, hence their use by some counciils.  Polycarbonate drinks bottles are also recyclable.  At least with this method of disposal, we are leaving our descendants something more useful

[jd.linklater]

There is a lot of confusion regarding the recycling of plastics, not surprising when you consider there are at least 7 different types of plastic currently in use. The most common which are classed as recyclable are type 1 and 2 (PET which is used for most water bottles and HDPE used for cloudy milk bottles etc). The problem is they can only be recycled once and not to make the same product, eg you can't recycle a plastic water bottle into another water bottle, it can only be downcycled to produce a lower grade plastic suitable for garden furniture for example. So of course this does nothing to reduce demand for further water bottles and whatever has been recycled ultimately still ends up in landfill.

Long term the answer has to be to stop producing so much of it, the only way around that has to be to make all plastic containers rigid enough to be used several times over and make them subject to a returnable deposit scheme. Lots of plastic containers are already strong enough for this purpose eg the containers used for motoring products like motor oil, brake fluid, screenwash etc. A lot of clothes washing liquids and other household products come in the same sort of heavy duty plastic. We can't go on dumping this stuff in the ground ad infinitum, eventually we will run out of space.

[cee-dee]

Your mention of plastic water bottles struck a chord as I could never understand the fad for carting bottles of water around can you?

Some years back you never saw anyone carrying any containers of an sort unless they were heading for a job/shift or something so why did the fad start?

People hell-bent on "promoting" expensive bottled water won't have it that tap water is fine to drink but no doubt they'll rake up old stories of problems to back up their reasons for using "healthy" bottled water?

Just wondered what comments I'd get from mentioning it......

[bankhaunter]

I find the sight of people walking around carrying bottles of water very strange although the water is gradually being replaced with smart phones. I hate having my hands full so much, I almost permanently carry a backpack.

Don't know whether it's still the same but a few years ago people seemed to have a fear of becoming dehydrated if they weren't constantly drinking water, it was said you needed to drink eight glasses per day and there are still website that promulgate the nonsense.

The area I live in Ceredigion, has a 68% waste recycling rate, mainly I suspect because they make it easy.

[lambsy_uk]

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@jd.linklater wrote:

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"Most of the synthetic plastics we use daily do not biodegrade, this is the whole problem with using landfill to dispose of them. The only thing that will break down plastics  is photodegradation ie they will degrade in sunlight. This is why the plastic plant pots you may have sitting on your patio will over time become thin and brittle. As they are broken down by sunlight the particulates that make up the plastic are released into the atmosphere or get washed into the soil when it rains, both are equally bad news for the environment."

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So yes I've read about plastics needing sunlight to break down and that the particulates could then pollute: therefore is it not better that they do not break down, therefore landfill would be the best solution because it would lead to less contamination.

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"This is also why the plastic that  is now ubiquitous throughout the world's oceans is slowly breaking down into microbeads."

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So shouldn't we encourage more to be sent to landfill to prevent it ending up in waterways and oceans?

 _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

"This doesn't happen in landfill, sunlight can't act on plastics underground and there is nothing in soil that will have any effect on it's lifespan. So any plastic in landfill will still be with us in thousands of years time rather than hundreds. In short we are stuck with it."

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

And this is a problem because? As I asked earlier, what's the problem with being stuck with it? Why the obsession with degredation, especially when this can cause pollution.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________ 

"We have the same problem dealing with plastic waste as we have with nuclear waste, there is still no storage process that is failsafe. The best solution we can come up with is to pack it into lead containers encased in concrete and bury it hundreds of feet underground, this is not a solution. All we are doing is passing the problem on to future generations and that is exactly what we are doing with plastics. What a terrible legacy to leave behind for our descendants."

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Really? Why is plastic buried underground such a terrible legacy?

[lambsy_uk]

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@jd.linklater wrote:

There is a lot of confusion regarding the recycling of plastics, not surprising when you consider there are at least 7 different types of plastic currently in use. The most common which are classed as recyclable are type 1 and 2 (PET which is used for most water bottles and HDPE used for cloudy milk bottles etc). The problem is they can only be recycled once and not to make the same product, eg you can't recycle a plastic water bottle into another water bottle, it can only be downcycled to produce a lower grade plastic suitable for garden furniture for example. So of course this does nothing to reduce demand for further water bottles and whatever has been recycled ultimately still ends up in landfill.

Long term the answer has to be to stop producing so much of it, the only way around that has to be to make all plastic containers rigid enough to be used several times over and make them subject to a returnable deposit scheme. Lots of plastic containers are already strong enough for this purpose eg the containers used for motoring products like motor oil, brake fluid, screenwash etc. A lot of clothes washing liquids and other household products come in the same sort of heavy duty plastic. We can't go on dumping this stuff in the ground ad infinitum, eventually we will run out of space.

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Yes, reducing the needless use of plastic would be a good start; reduced packaging etc. Then using plastic that can be recycled several times would also reduce the amount of new plastics required so also a good measure; and then when it has reached a state where it can't be recycled it should be sent to landfill where it will not break down and therefore will not reduce into polluting particals. I guess we would eventually run out of room in several thousands of years and therefore other solutions may be desirable. Personally I think we should burn more; that can produce energy and reduce the waste to a lesser state meaning even less landfill.

[right-then-petal]

24,465 items of microbeads on ebay

[lambsy_uk]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

I find the sight of people walking around carrying bottles of water very strange although the water is gradually being replaced with smart phones. I hate having my hands full so much, I almost permanently carry a backpack.

Don't know whether it's still the same but a few years ago people seemed to have a fear of becoming dehydrated if they weren't constantly drinking water, it was said you needed to drink eight glasses per day and there are still website that promulgate the nonsense.

The area I live in Ceredigion, has a 68% waste recycling rate, mainly I suspect because they make it easy.

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Yes I found that once it was made easier I started recycling far more than I used to. I'm lucky to live in an area where we can put all recyclable meterials in one bin; metals, paper, card and plastics all in one. If we got paid to do it I guess we'd try eben harder. Let's face it someone is making money from recycling so rather than threaten to fine people if they don't recycle eefectively, how about rewarding them if they do? 

[jd.linklater]

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

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@jd.linklater wrote:

There is a lot of confusion regarding the recycling of plastics, not surprising when you consider there are at least 7 different types of plastic currently in use. The most common which are classed as recyclable are type 1 and 2 (PET which is used for most water bottles and HDPE used for cloudy milk bottles etc). The problem is they can only be recycled once and not to make the same product, eg you can't recycle a plastic water bottle into another water bottle, it can only be downcycled to produce a lower grade plastic suitable for garden furniture for example. So of course this does nothing to reduce demand for further water bottles and whatever has been recycled ultimately still ends up in landfill.

Long term the answer has to be to stop producing so much of it, the only way around that has to be to make all plastic containers rigid enough to be used several times over and make them subject to a returnable deposit scheme. Lots of plastic containers are already strong enough for this purpose eg the containers used for motoring products like motor oil, brake fluid, screenwash etc. A lot of clothes washing liquids and other household products come in the same sort of heavy duty plastic. We can't go on dumping this stuff in the ground ad infinitum, eventually we will run out of space.

---

Yes, reducing the needless use of plastic would be a good start; reduced packaging etc. Then using plastic that can be recycled several times would also reduce the amount of new plastics required so also a good measure; and then when it has reached a state where it can't be recycled it should be sent to landfill where it will not break down and therefore will not reduce into polluting particals. I guess we would eventually run out of room in several thousands of years and therefore other solutions may be desirable. Personally I think we should burn more; that can produce energy and reduce the waste to a lesser state meaning even less landfill.

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You cannot recycle plastic several times, did you not see that or are you being deliberately obtuse? 

[cee-dee]

Bioplastics can be recycled indefinitely?

[jd.linklater]

I don't know about indefinitely, it certainly has the potential to be recycled but from what I've read the technology required doesn't exist at present. The world as a whole uses around 35 million tonnes of plastic a year of which only 0.2% is bioplastic, so it's not going to be a viable alternative any time soon. 

[fallen-archie]

What about reusing bottles, taking them back and getting your deposit returned, or going and getting your bottle filled with vinegar? Could this be the way backwards 😀 and what about a machine capable of making tonic water or pop, where you could re use the bottles each time? Sounds like a winner to me!

[cee-dee]

The majority are too lazy today, a product of the easy-come, easy-go society.

[lambsy_uk]

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@jd.linklater wrote:

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You cannot recycle plastic several times, did you not see that or are you being deliberately obtuse? 

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I don't do deliberately obtuse! I see at one point you said it could only be recycled once and you also said you can only recycle to a lower grade. You also mentioned 7 different types of plastic and making containers rigid enough to use several times over. I got used several times confused with recycled to a lower grade. I was thinking perhaps you could start at highest grade and then recycle several times going down through grades. Apologies. Anyway the ability to recycle all products and reduce the need/use of many would be desirable.

[lambsy_uk]

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@cee-dee wrote:

The majority are too lazy today, a product of the easy-come, easy-go society.

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That's not really fair. When I was a kid milk and pop was delivered and the empties taken away, all other rubbush just got chucked in the bin and the refuse collectors used to come get the bin out the back garden, empty it and put it back. Nowadays we have to separate our waste and take it to the kerb; that is a lot less lazy than in the past!

[cee-dee]

My comment was to what FA said.

[fallen-archie]

The point being there was no where near as much rubbish back then, we had just one galvanised dustbin for family of six and it was never full. You bought your fruit and veg at the market and put it into a net bag, anything flammable supplemented the fire and so on, granted there was not the same level of recycling s is available today but we through away far less. So it’s not so much the dangers of landfill as the sheer quantity that we now have to throw away!