08-10-2012 6:52 PM
No thread about this on here, so I thought I'd start one.
My starter for ten is this: Okay, I'm not saying anybody is making anything up, but why did all these people wait till he was dead before accusing him of all this stuff? And quite frankly, now he's dead, what can come from it other than tarnishing a reputation that was spotless and upsetting his grieving family even further. Seems basically wrong to me. Why does someone always have to bring down our heroes and role models? They should have done what they're doing now ten years ago or not at all if you ask me.
Nick
16-02-2013 7:15 PM
John ~ I honestly can't believe your statement:
"If believing in god mitz means not being in the evil category ..then it can't all be bad to have one eh"
IF you mean having a God removes the propensity for evil..?
In this particular thread, that 'evil' being paedophilia..?
You just have to look at the scandal which has rocked the Catholic Church for years ~ and the abuses perpetrate by Priests. There are, of course, other religions where the same evil has been perpetrated by 'trusted servants of God'. :_|
16-02-2013 7:33 PM
Obviously an earlier post of mine didn't sit comfortably with someone that touched a nerve or pricked the conscience.
Never mind! 😄
If you do mean me Mitzi, my apologies but I do have a life I do have to get on with outside of Ebay and after answering stevie, I had to go out and have only just logged back in.
No nerves touched or conscience pricked although I did find your post a tad hostile, but then we do all have a right to our opinions so I leave it at that.:-)
I.wanna
Aargh! You are doing it again; you are turning every actual event and heinous crime and putting into a fantasy land.
Sorry, but IMHO my posts are relevant because these heinous crime are with us because of an occurance concerning the opossition to God.
Of course if you yourself feel it is fantansy then that is your opinion - not mine.
We are talking about Jimmy Saville and other pedophiles not GOD!
Re: the above.:-)
Take this scenario. A child has been tortured, abused and raped but not killed. That child is 6 years old.
How do you comfort that child and explain to them what has happened and why.
If we were to follow your rationale, then the parents, doctors, policemen and women, social services, counselors and members of the legal profession would say:
“The man that did this to you is not responsible for his actions, it is not his fault, it was the work of the DEVIL and his demons but be assured that if he says sorry to his god, he will be forgiven so that when he dies he will be brought back to life again”.
Do you know how that sounds!
Is that going to give comfort to the child or scare the living daylights out of them?
Of course they wouldn't, as I explained to Stevie, these people have a very important job to do and are in those jobs because life on earth at the present time is in need of them. I have never said people in general are not responsible for their own actions of course they are, the law of the land uses the 10 commandments as a basis for their laws of right and wrong for which there are consequences and penalties. All I have said is Satan is at fault here as he is the one influencing the weaker sinful people, but these people in most cases are choosing for themselves how they act. Some do have mental health problems and cannot be held responsible, but in general a person chooses to commit crime and wrong doing, most know right from wrong.
As for the child themselves, they should be treated with love, support, yes explain to them what has happened, that the person that has done this terrible thing has done something very wrong. You help to heal that childs wounds and support them and try to give them the confidence to grow up and enjoy life as normal. You do have to make them realise too, it is not their fault, there was nothing wrong with them.
Jehovah though, through his teachings and promises goes further than that, he can assure every single person that has suffered at the hands of anyone with a heinous addiction or crime or whatever you like to call it that it their suffering is only a temporary, that he Jehovah, will restore happiness back to them and heal their pain, and that it will last till time indifinate, NO OTHER PERSON OR HEAD OF WORLDLY RELIGIONS AND GOVERNMENTS CAN PROMISE THAT AND FULLFIL IT. And you say God is bad:_|
There is absolutely no need to scare the living daylights out of that child as long as they are treated with love and taught things in a way they can understand. IMHO just to tell them what has happened to them and leave them with that wound till they die, telling them there is nothing else does more damage to them. They will have many more questions that will need truthful answers to, like why me, why do people do this to other people, etc etc.
You said “The Jimmy Savilles and the like have died so, they have paid the penalty for sin which is death.”
I say, What?! There are two known facts in life, you are born and you die anything in between that is a bonus and any after that is an unknown quantity.
Just because you don't wish to accept that there is more to life than just living for a few years then dying does not mean that there is no life everlasting being promised.
Forgive me but, I am going as far now to say, you yourself Mitzi by openly opposing and belittling the wonderous information of how Jehovah will give back righteous everlasting pain and suffering free life to those who would wish it, may very well frighten people off and prevent them from learning how to attain it, causing them to loose their life.
Are you saying that death is the penalty for living and the reason we die is because we have sinned!
No, that is not what I am saying at all, and if you had read my all my previous posts before in at other times when we have discussed this you would see my opinions don't change I always state the same.
Jehovah gave us life which was meant to be perfect sin free for ever.
Through Adam and Eve sin entered into the world and because death is the wages of sin then we all will die because of sin. Although you are looking at people commiting bad things as sinfull Jehovah is stating that all have inherited a sinful imperfect state, it is a slightly different way of explaining sin.
What Jehovah has done (by sending us Jesus Christ) although in an imperfect inherited sinful state, given us all the chance to chose for ouselves whether we want to be obedient to him or not and removing a most definate death, but putting us back into the same position Adam and Eve had of choosing to be obedient or not. ie, before Adam and Eve disobeyed, death was not a thing anyone had looming over them after only a few years of life.
I have tried my best there Mitzi to put it in writing so you can understand it even if you don't find it believable, that is my fault of not being better at explaining things though, not any fault with what I am trying to put across.
You may be a nice person but to be honest I find you quite scary and dangerous.
I really don't see why I could be any threat to anyone TBH, I live by the good principles required by Jehovah, Loving my neighbour, honesty, mildtempered, I don't kill, I don't steal, I am law abiding, I respect my fellow man, I don't abuse people in anyway like the sick people of society, I don't get drunk, I don't use drugs, I am clean living, I don't swear, I don't smoke, I do what I can when I can for my family, I taught my children the same.
How is that dangerous or a threat to anyone?:-x
I will be interested to read the answer to Stevie's question.
I wonder what you thought?:-)
16-02-2013 7:39 PM
aha cat,;)
belief in a god that keep you thoughts on all the good things you can do,isn't a bad thing.
organisations that say they all are good, not so much. That was my statement ,me I dont need a god as my conscience never lets me down 🙂
some believe that's the very chap.
As for jim ,I can't make my mind up ,apparently lots of others are also being charged ,we will see.
I personally didn't believe the michael jackson stuff .
Abuse does go on and it's very wrong.
16-02-2013 7:48 PM
Loving my neighbour, honesty, mildtempered, I don't kill, I don't steal, I am law abiding, I respect my fellow man, I don't abuse people in anyway like the sick people of society, I don't get drunk, I don't use drugs, I am clean living, I don't swear, I don't smoke, I do what I can when I can for my family, I taught my children the same........................................................................................................................................................ I do all that and i dont believe in any god.....
16-02-2013 7:54 PM
Loving my neighbour, honesty, mildtempered, I don't kill, I don't steal, I am law abiding, I respect my fellow man, I don't abuse people in anyway like the sick people of society, I don't get drunk, I don't use drugs, I am clean living, I don't swear, I don't smoke, I do what I can when I can for my family, I taught my children the same........................................................................................................................................................ I do all that.
Good for you, but what is it that makes you feel you should live like that?
You and I are still people who have inherited sin, and are imperfect. The difference is that I recognize that Jehovah is deserving of my appreciation, my obedience and worship because I owe my life to him.
16-02-2013 8:04 PM
Now lets get back into the real world and talk about dirty men who have sex with children.. the whole lot of them should be locked up or gelded..
16-02-2013 8:24 PM
Now lets get back into the real world and talk about dirty men who have sex with children.. the whole lot of them should be locked up or gelded..
Possibly, if that is what the law of the land decides, then It would happen I assume.
But, what about Jimmy Saville? he died before he could be tried and punished, didn't he. Don't think locking him up or gelding him would do much good now though do you.:-)
Just a little aside, I am a Jehovah's Witness and I do try very hard to follow the faith to the best of my ability, no I am not perfect by any means. If I were to have a lapse of strength to adhere to the principles I am required to live by and did do something very serious, say a murder, or a serious crime like arson or mugging, I would still be responsible for my own actions and have to accept the consequences - the imprisonment, large fine or even death penalty that the law of the land would dish out. I would not get away with anything just because I am or profess to be a Jehovah's witness. I would be expected by the organisation to serve my sentence, take my punishment.
16-02-2013 8:32 PM
why dont you read post 281.. we have moved on from Jimmy evil..
16-02-2013 8:34 PM
I would not get away with anything just because I am or profess to be a Jehovah's witness. I would be expected by the organisation to serve my sentence, take my punishment.
http://www.silentlambs.org/education/jwaccused.cfm
The church law which dictates that members must turn to elders rather than the police also demands that there must be two witnesses to a crime before taking any action. The biblical citation for this is found in Deuteronomy 19:15: 'No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.'
In instances of child abuse, where there are no witnesses other than the child involved, critics of the church say the guide lines amount to a 'paedophile paradise'.
16-02-2013 8:48 PM
Thanks for that link... i have read things before ..but didnt remember were..
I would not get away with anything just because I am or profess to be a Jehovah's witness. I would be expected by the organisation to serve my sentence, take my punishment.
http://www.silentlambs.org/education/jwaccused.cfm
The church law which dictates that members must turn to elders rather than the police also demands that there must be two witnesses to a crime before taking any action. The biblical citation for this is found in Deuteronomy 19:15: 'No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.'
In instances of child abuse, where there are no witnesses other than the child involved, critics of the church say the guide lines amount to a 'paedophile paradise'.
16-02-2013 8:51 PM
16-02-2013 8:52 PM
I would not get away with anything just because I am or profess to be a Jehovah's witness. I would be expected by the organisation to serve my sentence, take my punishment.
http://www.silentlambs.org/education/jwaccused.cfm
The church law which dictates that members must turn to elders rather than the police also demands that there must be two witnesses to a crime before taking any action. The biblical citation for this is found in Deuteronomy 19:15: 'No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.'
In instances of child abuse, where there are no witnesses other than the child involved, critics of the church say the guide lines amount to a 'paedophile paradise'.
Good point Creeky, but you and these critics, because you don't believe in a/the God are failing to take into account the fact that he is all seeing, he sees and is a Witness, his son Jesus sees and is a witness, also there are many more spirit creatures in the heavens who see and are witnesess, so even though it may seem that some can get away with their wrong doing - perhaps witnesess as well, none of anybodies wrong doing gets missed or forgotten by Jehovah.
16-02-2013 9:00 PM
tommy,if you live like that then you dont need a god,... you are one lol
16-02-2013 9:03 PM
Good point Creeky, but you and these critics, because you don't believe in a/the God are failing to take into account the fact that he is all seeing, he sees and is a Witness, his son Jesus sees and is a witness, also there are many more spirit creatures in the heavens who see and are witnesess, so even though it may seem that some can get away with their wrong doing - perhaps witnesess as well, none of anybodies wrong doing gets missed or forgotten by Jehovah.
Ha..ha you make me laugh,, but this is no joke for the child who needs help....[ its ok god will get him when he dies ].. its the same with the priests..they wouldnt do any harm..If a child come for help you help them.. you dont send them away..
16-02-2013 9:06 PM
tommy,if you live like that then you dont need a god,... you are one lol
Im just a happy go lucky kind of guy and i have Irene by my side
16-02-2013 9:11 PM
I think we all should remember that the vast majority of child abuse takes place in the home,either by the child's own family or a family friend,it matters nothing to a child if the abuser wears a dog collar or is a so called celebrity,Maybe this thread would be better off going back to it's original intentions.
16-02-2013 9:19 PM
but intensions were to not hound jimmy saville because hes dead,but agree if guilty he sould be exposed for what he was not remembered for doing good.
I was just curious how god turned up.
Has he been found guilty yet? jim not god.
16-02-2013 11:10 PM
.. its the same with the priests..they wouldnt do any harm..If a child come for help you help them.. you dont send them away..
Maybe I do make you laugh tommy.:-)
Though, as I choose to have faith in Jehovah and believe in his promises and teachings and know he cannot lie to me because he is perfect, I must put my trust in him.
Just because I as an imperfect human I cannot understand all his ways doesn't mean they are not right. I know that whatever needs to be justly dealt with by him will be done, it may not be done in a way that I would expect but it will be done.
I have read the report that creeky's link directs me to, and of course a father abusing daughters is wrong whether it be a JW, Catholic or any other. I cannot comment of the case itself or the reasons behind certain decisions that are made by the congregations because I don't know the facts and it is not my place to do so.
IMHO the report is not completely true, there are things in it that from my own experience within my own congregation (of 20 years) know to be wrong. I have never had cause to doubt what I have been taught about how problems are dealt with. And I have to admit because we are all imperfect and make mistakes there have been mistakes made which have had to be dealt with.
I do know that Elders are the first to get a brother or sister to go to the police if they have done anything against the law.
I know of an Elder having his priviledges as an Elder removed because of wrong doing.
Disfellowshipping does not have to be permanent. We have quite a few that have been reinstated.
Even while a person is disfellowshipped they are not refused entry to the Kingdom Hall and not refused the chance to listen and learn. If Elders are approached by a disfellowshipped person needing help and direction they are not refused that help or guidence either. A disfellowshipping is only a last resort and usually for only very serious things.
As for a family member not being allowed to be part of the family that is not the case either.
Lastly if a child goes to the elders in need of help they get it they are not turned away.
Children are blessings from God and loved and cherished.
What I will mention though is, reports like the one creeky gave a link to are written and back up by non witnesses, even the one in the report was no longer a witness so they will be very biased and do their uttmost to discredit the organisation.
Rather like many posters here.
Because of that no-one can be 100% confident what is reported is the whole truth or hasn't been reported in quite the way it really was. It is human nature to a point to use wording in the best way they know how to get the most desired affect.
Because of that I cannot take that report litterally and I have to trust in my God that what ever needs to be put right will be.
16-02-2013 11:46 PM
What I will mention though is, reports like the one creeky gave a link to are written and back up by non witnesses, even the one in the report was no longer a witness so they will be very biased and do their uttmost to discredit the organisation.
Rather like many posters here
I accept that point but it really doesn't address my real worry.
What is the situation if a child or parent of a child approaches an elder to claim the child has been abused and the only witness to the act is the child and the accused abuser denies any abuse has taken place. Would the Bible be followed and no further action taken or would the civil authorities be alerted so that they could investigate?
If the former then my opinion is quite simple - it is morally WRONG and repugnant.
17-02-2013 12:14 AM
What I will mention though is, reports like the one creeky gave a link to are written and back up by non witnesses, even the one in the report was no longer a witness so they will be very biased and do their uttmost to discredit the organisation.
Rather like many posters here
I accept that point but it really doesn't address my real worry.
What is the situation if a child or parent of a child approaches an elder to claim the child has been abused and the only witness to the act is the child and the accused abuser denies any abuse has taken place. Would the Bible be followed and no further action taken or would the civil authorities be alerted so that they could investigate?
If the former then my opinion is quite simple - it is morally WRONG and repugnant.
Creeky, you deserve a truthful answer on this, and/so at the moment I can only go with my gut feeling and what I personally glean from the teachings. So I am going to have to go and check on a few things because I cannot give you an answer outright without doing so.
I understand what you are asking, and personally I would find it wrong too, so I need to know myself. I need to do some research.