Should Faith/Religion Have Such a High Value In Our Society?

[lambsy_uk]

I'm not here to trample all over people's faith/beliefs but to ask if/why such beliefs should hold such high value in our society?

So where am I comming from? Well we can freely question almost anything in our society/lives; morals, political beliefs, actions and reactions, motivations, interactions, foreign policy, education, welfare, how we raise our children, law and order and so on..........

However we are positively discouraged from questioning people's faith/beliefs/religion! We are also actively encouraged to accommodate and allow for people's religious beliefs, and this is the bit that really irks me! Why is it that if something is done in the name of a religious belief/practice then we are expected to accept it with little fuss where if any other excuse were used we'd be up in arms?

We endure arguments of whether animal rights should take precedence over religion, whether saving the life of a child should take precedence over their parent's beliefs, should freedom of expression take precedence over religious sensitivities?

For me you may as well base stuff on the football team you support;

"I can't comply with the company dress code because I'm a United fan and therefore I must be allowed to wear a United shirt at work."

As far as I'm concerned this is no more ridiculous than anything done/not done in the name of religious beliefs!

So why do religious beliefs hold such high status and is it right that they do?

[saasher2012]

Would you like to explain to those who have a disease& are deformed in one way or another why you are so sure it's their fault because they are so far removed to this Jehovah & even more so to parents of a child still in the womb who has been diagnosed with an Incurable illness & or a disability. Because to my minds eye this is a straight case of emotional blackmail , do as I say or I will punish you, not a gentle or persuasive forgiving God quite the opposite!

[bankhaunter]

The matter of automatic respect for ruling members of the various religions was put rather nicely by Christopher Hitchens in this video.

His view on the idea of an afterlife was one I came to years ago and was part of my growing atheism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LELyEju7E6k

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
Would you like to explain to those who have a disease& are deformed in one way or another why you are so sure it's their fault because they are so far removed to this Jehovah & even more so to parents of a child still in the womb who has been diagnosed with an Incurable illness & or a disability. Because to my minds eye this is a straight case of emotional blackmail , do as I say or I will punish you, not a gentle or persuasive forgiving God quite the opposite!

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I do beg your pardon saasher, but can you show me where I said it was the sufferers fault? because I don't believe I did?

[saasher2012]

Diseases & deformities are the result of us being so far removed from Jehovah we are no longer perfect.
I ask only for an explanation of this statement?.

[bankhaunter]

Funny thing about Religion and Faith,,, people dont go to church or actively voice how much they dislike church and then when a tradgedy happens or illness or trouble they start going to mass and getting involved with the church again!!

Are you sure about that?

When I had a bout of unstable angina, just one step away from a heart attack, I knew it was serious, my first thought was that I would really be annoyed to die as it was in May and I'd miss a whole summer's fishing.

There is of course the fear of dying element, I had a lot of problems visualising death, it's not easy but eventually it dawned on me that after I was dead I would be just the same as I was before I was born.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
Diseases & deformities are the result of us being so far removed from Jehovah we are no longer perfect.
I ask only for an explanation of this statement?.

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I realise that is what you are asking saasher, that is why I asked you where I stated it is the sufferers fault. If you read that statement it is not laying blame anywhere. Yes, we are all imperfect so far removed from the perfection that Adam and Eve where given.

The blame or fault lies solely at Adam and Eves and Satan's feet. As they sinned before producing offspring that means they became sinners and lost Jehovah's favour and protection and that means then any offspring born to them after that inherited their parents sinful tendencies and were born imperfect. That also brings in things like diseases and deformities down through the ages. I am sure you know how the deformities are passed down through different family trees so I don't need to explain further. The more generations through the ages the further away from perfection we get and the worse the deformities and diseases can become. Death is as a result of Adam and Eves disobedience as state in the Bible " The wages sin pays is death"

We are not to blame for those inheritances, we are not to blame for being classed as sinners or imperfect, but it is something at the moment we have no choice but to suffer. Jehovah knows that it is not our fault so he has set in place a solution that will right the wrongs done to mankind by Satan, Adam and Eve. That Solution is On going with the start being Jesus' sacrifice balancing the scales if you like. Making a clear pathway for mankind to be restored back to perfection and consequently free from sin and death.

Jehovah is lovingly removing all sin disease and death.

The problem is people are not looking right into Gods purposes and not understanding what is being done by Jehovah, and so they jump to all kinds of wrong conclusions and lay blame at God's feet for all the suffering etc. Jehovah is rectifying these wrongs not causing them. He is a God of love not the opposite.

[lambsy_uk]

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

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The state of this planet is quite poor compared to what it once was because there are manmade problems of pollution wrecking the water, salt and fresh. The rain forest is diminishing at an alarming rate, many countries battered and war torn, with famine and droughts very prevalent. Terrible storms, Huge destructive waves, earthquakes. This world won't be able to take much more.  It is very sad to hear so much of the I'm alright Jack mentality. You go tell that starving little girl in the midst of her parched waterless wartorn wasteland of a country who's belly is so distended she is in agony that this planet is just fine and dandy I am sure you won't get the reply you would soo want to hear.

The planet is just fine, has been around for about 4.5 billion years and will be around another 4.5 billion or more! Famine and drought affect people in isolated areas but not the planet on the whole. Waves and Earthquakes are part of the planet's natural phenomenom and the World has endured much worse over the past 4.5 billion years with one asteroid hit doing far more damage than anything we've seen!

I don't believe the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is as commonplace as some would have us believe. I can tell the starving girl the planet is just fine even if unfortunately she isn't! This is a sign of your 'I'm alright Jack' attitude, you seem to equate the fate of the people with the fate of the planet, we may be fragile but the planet is thriving!

Yes OK, love for fellow man is demonstrated daily but along side vicious hatred. What is the cause of war then I ask you, that certainly isn't love for fellow man.

No, religion is the cause of most conflict and viscious hatred that I've witnessed!!!

You say selflessness outweighs selfishness.......in Gods order of things there will be no selfishness at all.

Well what is he waiting for?

Scince can and does wonderful things, why wouldn't you feel death could not be conquered then? Although I am quite pleased that you admit it wouldn't be. Only Jehovah has the power and the desire to fulfill that one, he has promised it, he has even guaranteed it.

Why do you believe that conquering death is the ultimate goal or fulfillment? Death comes to us all and we deal with it without the need to seek eternity!!!

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[**bustysinclaire**]

I can tell the starving girl the planet is just fine even if unfortunately she isn't!

Oh, how great that will be for that poor little girl. That's her lot while you and others eat to satisfaction, not really fair at all. At least Jehovah through his earthly organisation can offer her hope and help and teach her that the sufferings of this world are only temporary. That there will be a time when all are equal.

No, religion is the cause of most conflict and viscious hatred that I've witnessed!!!

You are right about that actually, JW's do agree with that, but the mistake you are making is associating us and the truth (That is the way we choose to describe our beliefs) with all the other religions of the world. Gods way is not a religion it is the way of truth.

Well what is he waiting for?

I have already answered that one.

Why do you believe that conquering death is the ultimate goal or fulfillment? Death comes to us all and we deal with it without the need to seek eternity!!!

Because I am speaking about God's purpose, he made mankind to live forever and to enjoy a meaningful happy righteous life in peace and security. Death is an unnatural part of our life we were not meant to grow old and die. I for one am not ashamed to admit I don't want to die, I want to keep living forever and I am convinced that that promise will be fulfilled as long as I stay faithful. It will also be fulfilled for every single person if they so wish. Also we have the wonderful prospect of the resurrection of millions who have already died.

[tommy.irene]

Hang on only 144,000 can get into heaven and they are aready there since 1935 ..there is no more room ..   

[lambsy_uk]

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

Oh, how great that will be for that poor little girl. That's her lot while you and others eat to satisfaction, not really fair at all. At least Jehovah through his earthly organisation can offer her hope and help and teach her that the sufferings of this world are only temporary. That there will be a time when all are equal.

You said the state of the planet was poor but now you're focusing on a small number of the people, please make your mind up! In my opinion jehovah may offer false hope but nothing more, not a solution, not anything practical, just delusions!

You are right about that actually, JW's do agree with that, but the mistake you are making is associating us and the truth (That is the way we choose to describe our beliefs) with all the other religions of the world. Gods way is not a religion it is the way of truth.

I'm not associating anything, just stating the facts; religion is the cause of most conflict and viscious hatred

Because I am speaking about God's purpose, he made mankind to live forever and to enjoy a meaningful happy righteous life in peace and security. Death is an unnatural part of our life we were not meant to grow old and die. I for one am not ashamed to admit I don't want to die, I want to keep living forever and I am convinced that that promise will be fulfilled as long as I stay faithful. It will also be fulfilled for every single person if they so wish. Also we have the wonderful prospect of the resurrection of millions who have already died.

I suggest you may be disappointed!

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[bankhaunter]

Death is an unnatural part of our life we were not meant to grow old and die

You don't see the obvious flaw in that when it comes to population growth?

If mankind was not supposed to die why did God give him a digestive system in order he should stay alive and why would Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit, they didn't need to support life so what was the point of eating?

If animals were also not intended to die why did some have teeth claws designed for catching and eating meat and indeed why were there those who would have been happy to eat Adam

Would anyone take a very young child who would not know right from wrong, put them in a room with a brightly coloured ball, tell them not to touch it and then severely punish them if they did.

If the answer is no, does that not show man has a higher moral standard than God?

The Adam and Eve story is just a rather poor story to explain why people have the lives they do and to reinforce an imaginary god's power in order to control the population and help retain the power of the priests.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Death is an unnatural part of our life we were not meant to grow old and die

You don't see the obvious flaw in that when it comes to population growth?

No flaw, Jehovah instructed the first pair to fill the earth and become many, not over populate, so sometime when there becomes enough on the earth for it to be full but not overflowing then .........stop filling it. simples.......

If mankind was not supposed to die why did God give him a digestive system in order he should stay alive and why would Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit, they didn't need to support life so what was the point of eating?

What a weak argument. the digestive system is a needed part of the body however long someone lives or not. More for life sustaining and dealing with waste. you miss the point of the "do not eat the fruit" instructions completely.

If animals were also not intended to die why did some have teeth claws designed for catching and eating meat and indeed why were there those who would have been happy to eat Adam

There is no mention of animals not dying, I have never claimed that at all. In the edamic paradise animals were not fearful and they did not need to eat meat man and beast lived in harmany together. It is only after the flood when mankind survived into a world that needed to recover from the flood that meat was then by God put on the menu for man to eat to live.

Would anyone take a very young child who would not know right from wrong, put them in a room with a brightly coloured ball, tell them not to touch it and then severely punish them if they did.

That is quite a silly senario in my opinion, but if you do want my take on that then, you would obviously need a really good reason for doing it and explain all the ins and outs with that child, so they can choose for themselves whether to obey or not. If the child is too young for an explanation then if the ball must not be touched then you do not put temptation in their way.

We are duscussing Adam and Eve, they were adults and knew Jehovah and his purposes well, they had no need to eat that fruit because they had everything else in abundance, and had perfect living conditions. Jehovah had very good reasons for the instructions he gave, it was not just a question of don't touch that ball cos I said so.

If the answer is no, does that not show man has a higher moral standard than God?

lol, I must be very dim because that sorry is just making me smile.

The Adam and Eve story is just a rather poor story to explain why people have the lives they do and to reinforce an imaginary god's power in order to control the population and help retain the power of the priests.

And so is that one. Of course you will come out with all these questions because you must find ways of explaining away the things you don't wish to believe in.

Any good and truthful explanation that any JW will give you you will do the same.

Which priests? again I think there is a mixing up of faiths there, Jehovah has nothing to do with worldly religions priests.

God is very real and exersicing his power, if you choose not not believe in him then that is your choice. even if you feel you can explain him away with what you believe to be sound reasonings he will still exist whether you like it or not. My faith in him is mine but whether I believe in him or not he still exists.

Do not underestimate God and his power.

[lambsy_uk]

Busty,

What are your thoughts regarding the position religion and related beliefs and practices hold within our society? Do you believe that religious beliefs should take precedence over the law of the land for example? Should they take precedence over company policy, uniform codes, health and safety considerations, medicine or life-saving procedures?

[bankhaunter]

What a weak argument. the digestive system is a needed part of the body however long someone lives or not. More for life sustaining and dealing with waste. you miss the point of the "do not eat the fruit" instructions completely.

But if there is no death it doesn't matter whether or not someone eats anything.

in the edamic paradise animals were not fearful and they did not need to eat meat

Then why have teeth and a digestive system designed for that purpose?

If the child is too young for an explanation then if the ball must not be touched then you do not put temptation in their way.

So you see no similarity between the child and Adam and Eve who, at the time, had no knowledge of good and evil and were not aware of what death meant.

Also bear in mind that when God put the tree there, he already knew exactly what was going to happen, it was a deliberate action on his part to engineer original sin and where is the morallity in punishing future generations for something he created?

Which priests? again I think there is a mixing up of faiths there, Jehovah has nothing to do with worldly religions priests.

You mean your elders don't have power over you? Try questioning them over the interpretations in the Watchtower, try suggesting they may be wrong.

God is very real and exersicing his power,

Give me just one example of anything outside that written in an old book which does not have a natural explanation and doesn't rely on "I don't know so God did it".

[saasher2012]

I apologise if you misunderstood my question ! But what I would like to know in simple terms is this, if we are not responsible for the original sin why are we still paying for it & why is it taking so long, surely the one who should suffer is Satan himself as he caused the problem? I do admire your utter faith in your God but I'm afraid I'm still not in anyway swayed by your opinions , may I also ask are you quoting from a book of JW teachings or are these your own thoughts?

[bankhaunter]

Original sin had to be invented so no person could say they hadn't sinned and therefore did not need forgiveness and to get that forgiveness they would need a priest so thereby giving priests their power.

That was another thing on my way to atheism, to be constantly told that no matter how I had behaved, I still needed to ask for forgiveness till it got to the point where I decided just what the preachers could do with it.

A message on a wall in a concentation camp said "When I meet the Lord, he will have to ask for my forgivenes".

[**bustysinclaire**]

What a weak argument. the digestive system is a needed part of the body however long someone lives or not. More for life sustaining and dealing with waste. you miss the point of the "do not eat the fruit" instructions completely.

But if there is no death it doesn't matter whether or not someone eats anything.

Bank I do understand where you are coming from on this, God doesn't explain every little detail there are occasions when we just have to accept that that is how it is.  Jehovah chose to design man the way he did. I duppose that in the begining it was not meant to be an issue. There was no death but Jehovah designed us and the world we live in the way it is for our enjoyment to. Our bodies were designed in such a way that it just kept renewing itself so didn't die.Take for example our millions of body cells, we shed old and make new. We were designed in a way to enjoy food - look at our taste buds. The planet a wonderful aray of colours, creatures, foliage etc. It was all designed for our pleasure and enjoyment.

in the edamic paradise animals were not fearful and they did not need to eat meat

Then why have teeth and a digestive system designed for that purpose?

Again Why? indeed, Jehovah saw fit to design them that way. Even if you don't believe in a God and he being the creator the Bible does give answers to many of the questions we do like to ask. The bible does tell us about animals, Jehovah tells of the things we need to know, perhaps it was one of those things we didn't really need to know at the time they were created.

If the child is too young for an explanation then if the ball must not be touched then you do not put temptation in their way.

So you see no similarity between the child and Adam and Eve who, at the time, had no knowledge of good and evil and were not aware of what death meant.

No, sorry I don't. As I said Adam and Eve were adults and had been very close to God, there is accounts in the Bible of God talking to Adam in the breezy part of the day (We understand that to be evening I think) so they would have known the reasons behind them not to touch. Jehovah is a loving God so I am sure he would have made them understand what death would mean even though at that time they hadn't sinned previously. They were warned you positively wil die.

We (man) do tend to assume far too much, it is good to question things but sometimes too many insugnificant questions can hold us back or stumble us.

When I first started taking an interest in the truth (JW faith) because I have a very simple logical brain I couldn't get my head around the fact that Jehovah was a grand designer but he had no begining or will have no end. I constantly questioned it How can that be. In the end I just have to accept that he has always been there and always will, and not try to strain my simple brain with trying to find an explanation that is anything more than that because there isn't one.

Also bear in mind that when God put the tree there, he already knew exactly what was going to happen, it was a deliberate action on his part to engineer original sin and where is the morallity in punishing future generations for something he created?

He had a reason for doing that yes, but the reasons for doing it I believe a valid ones, I certainly don't believe it was a deliberate engineering of sin, as they did have freedom of choice, it was satan who (with his freedom of choice shose to oppose God then tried to decieve Adam and Eve. Sadly he succeeded. If God was happy to make man and had wonderful joy from doing so and was able to be pleased with his creation, why then destroy that. And no he is not vindictive or cruel so your comeback on that won't sway me.

Which priests? again I think there is a mixing up of faiths there, Jehovah has nothing to do with worldly religions priests.

You mean your elders don't have power over you? Try questioning them over the interpretations in the Watchtower, try suggesting they may be wrong.

No they have no power over me. I choose to be in the organisation because I wan to be, I am always treated well and with love and patience if ever I go to any with questions I have them answered, so far always to my satisfaction and understanding. I have things explained to me by the elders  in a way that is always bible based, the bible is always consulted and used so If we come to conclusions we can be confident they are Gods ways not ours. The Elders always get their direction from Jehovah.

Of course we are all just mere imperfect humans so certains human traits com out but I have never had an experience myself when ever I have questioned anything and made any Elder react in a way you may be implying. 

God is very real and exersicing his power,

Give me just one example of anything outside that written in an old book which does not have a natural explanation and doesn't rely on "I don't know so God did it".

Forgive me Bank I am not really sure what you are asking for, is it possible for you to rephrase it just a little, although I think this is what you are asking for.

Jehovah and his Word the bible, deals with every aspect of life, nature/natural = Jehovah God and his accomplishing his purposes.

Sorry, if I have misunderstood what you are trying to get here,  not really sure if you know what I am getting at.

[joe_bloggs*]

As regards the original question,should religion have such a high value in our society? I think as has been already stated control of the population was the main idea,The queen is the governor of the church of England,we have unelected religious leaders sitting in the house of lords passing legislation over us,time I think for total separation.We might as well have retired football managers sitting in the lords,after all I,m sure more people go to a football match on a saturday than go to church on a Sunday

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
I apologise if you misunderstood my question ! But what I would like to know in simple terms is this, if we are not responsible for the original sin why are we still paying for it & why is it taking so long, surely the one who should suffer is Satan himself as he caused the problem? I do admire your utter faith in your God but I'm afraid I'm still not in anyway swayed by your opinions , may I also ask are you quoting from a book of JW teachings or are these your own thoughts?

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The original sin of Adam and Eve, was punishable by death, God removed his everlasting life sustaining force from them so they grew old and died. Their offspring inherited their sinful state of imperfection (down to this day)  and grow old and die. Jehovah has made a promise that he will reverse that sinful state and death starting with sending Jesus as a ransom sacrifice. We are all in a sinful imperfect state but still have the ability to learn right from wrong from Jehovah's view point.

It is taking so long because there are many issues and challenges Satan raised against God and mankind that have to be settled, and for want of a better way of describing it a Teaching campaign ie Preaching work to teach people about the True God and not any false religions. The completion of that will culminate with the final destruction of Satan and his demons. SATAN WILL BE DESTROYED FOR EVER he will not go unpunished.

My answers saasher are from the heart, my own words based on what I have learnt from the Bible. Yes we do have many books and they are called Bible aids, but how I write and what I write (apart from the odd copy and paste of scriptures and the odd quote from a bible aid)  is all my own words. We are not brainwashed to just quote stuff word for word from reams of prewritten manuscripts or anything. Our faith is a way of life that we truly believe in and enjoy and want. We love and appreciate our God Jehovah and because of that we WANT to be obedient.

[bankhaunter]

We were designed in a way to enjoy food - look at our taste buds.

So the ability to eat was just for pleasure and served no purpose in sustaining life or is it that taste buds evolved to help avoid harmful food, food essential for life.

Again Why? indeed, Jehovah saw fit to design them that way.

So God designed some animals in a way that was entirely unsuited to the food they eat. Can we deduce therefore that God was remarkably inefficient or could it be that the story is just that, a story.

He had a reason for doing that yes, but the reasons for doing it I believe a valid ones, I certainly don't believe it was a deliberate engineering of sin, as they did have freedom of choice,

How could it be freedom of choice since God knew beforehand what would happen when he put the tree there, he was the only one with the freedom of choice hence it being done deliberately.

The Elders always get their direction from Jehovah.

So you cannot disagree with them and they do have power over you. If they don't why do you need them, can't you think for yourself and come to your own conclusions?

Forgive me Bank I am not really sure what you are asking for, is it possible for you to rephrase it just a little,

I thought it a fairly simple question, if you say your god is exercising his powers why can't that exercise be observed.

We know how the natural world evolved and there is no exercise of power there, if it is anywhere else give an example that cannot be explained other than by the action of a god.