Should Faith/Religion Have Such a High Value In Our Society?

[lambsy_uk]

I'm not here to trample all over people's faith/beliefs but to ask if/why such beliefs should hold such high value in our society?

So where am I comming from? Well we can freely question almost anything in our society/lives; morals, political beliefs, actions and reactions, motivations, interactions, foreign policy, education, welfare, how we raise our children, law and order and so on..........

However we are positively discouraged from questioning people's faith/beliefs/religion! We are also actively encouraged to accommodate and allow for people's religious beliefs, and this is the bit that really irks me! Why is it that if something is done in the name of a religious belief/practice then we are expected to accept it with little fuss where if any other excuse were used we'd be up in arms?

We endure arguments of whether animal rights should take precedence over religion, whether saving the life of a child should take precedence over their parent's beliefs, should freedom of expression take precedence over religious sensitivities?

For me you may as well base stuff on the football team you support;

"I can't comply with the company dress code because I'm a United fan and therefore I must be allowed to wear a United shirt at work."

As far as I'm concerned this is no more ridiculous than anything done/not done in the name of religious beliefs!

So why do religious beliefs hold such high status and is it right that they do?

[**bustysinclaire**]

The flood did not happen, it is physically impossible in so many ways and in reality only a rehash of earlier stories like so much of the Bible

I can accept that you personally don't believe it happened, but you have no way of knowing that for sure.

However God's power is so great that nothing is impossible.

A little bit of interesting reading for you both

http://unmaskingevolution.com/18-flood.htm

[bankhaunter]

My reference to the flood was meaning the biblical flood that was supposed to cover the entire earth. the whole Noah story consists of physical impossibilities hence it being obvious it is just a story and certainly not a real event, I'm amazed there are those who believe it actually happened and have all sorts of impossible ways to explain it.

It may well have been based on the earlier flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh there are many similarities, sending out birds for example, but there have been a great number of flood myths where the gods have punished man.

Floods are indeed caused by nature and probably the reason why they are used in so many stories of divine retribution is the fact they were a well known cause of disaster virtually everywhere in the world so listeners to the story would have found them quite believable, even in mountainous regions you have flash floods.

[bankhaunter]

I can accept that you personally don't believe it happened, but you have no way of knowing that for sure.

If someone makes a claim the onus lies on them to prove it, mere assertions are not enough, there are a lot of things I don't know for sure but that doesn't mean I have to believe they are true, you can't say for sure that unicorns don't exist but you don't believe they do.

The size of the Ark is unsustainable in a ship built of wood, it would never have survived for long enough without so getting so many leaks it would have sunk, that's if it didn't break apart. Check out 'hogging' and 'sagging'.

The largest wooden ship ever built was the Wyoming, it had a shorter hull which had diagonal iron bracing and still needed continual pumping to keep her dry.

Don't forget she was the end result of hundreds of years of ship building experience and yet we are expected to believe a bronze age farmer could do better.

With the length of time it took to build the Ark, it would be rotting away as fast as it was being built and whilst it is possible to make pitch from tree branches, it's only in relatively small amounts so how was the Ark coated?

Where did all the water come from and equally where did it go? (please don't say there was a water canopy suspended around the earth, that is simply absurd and easily refuted).

How did animals such as penguins, polar bears and kangeroos get to the ark and how did they get back without stopping somewhere along the way?

The very impossibilty of having all the species kinds of animals confined in a small place, the feeding and watering, removing of waste and the fact that the various gene pools contained in such a small number would have meant a strong likelihood of eventual extinction for many.

Plus of course there is no geological or any other evidence for a global flood outside of the Bible.

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence and there is none whatsoever.

[**bustysinclaire**]

lol xxx

[saasher2012]

I would like to add, if you consider the amount of water & fodder one Elephant consumes in one day it's fairly obvious the impracticality
Of a ship carrying food & water for so many species of animal for that length of time, how would they keep it from rotting & the water from being contaminated , not apart from the waste products produced from consuming the food as one poster said. The amount of humans on board must have been mucking out non stop & still not have been able to keep up with it, consequently risking disease & yet we are led to believe all arrived at the end of the of it all. No Sorry ! I don't buy that one bit.

[cee-dee]

It's a complete waste of time trying to instil any logic into the beliefs of those who persist in believing the impossible.

[bankhaunter]

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

lol xxx

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I think you have demonstrated the strength of your argument.

There are a couple of things about the story that slightly puzzle me, why is there no mention of fish, is it because the writers were not aware the desalination of the oceans would have killed them off and assumed fish would easily survive, also how is it that corals would have undoubtly also been killed off and we know that is not the case but then of course again corals were something the writers had no knowledge of.

The other thing in lighter vein but did God really expect Noah to believe a rainbow was a good sign since it must have been raining at the time?

When I was very young it was the tradition at Christmas to have a pillow case at the end of the bed for Santa Claus to leave small gifts, sweets etc, larger presents were handed out later in the day and would be piled up under the tree.

One Christmas having reached the age when doubt as to the existence of Santa was creeping in, I decided to prove it one way or the other.

I had a fireplace in my room so reasoned that if I prevented anyone entering the room I would find out on the principle that no presents = no Santa.

I put a stool under the door handle and in the morning there were presents but the stool had obviously been moved, I had my answer.

When you are faced with an incredible claim you need real evidence not just someone's say so. Just because several people say the same is not evidence if their words are from the same source, they have to be verifiable.

[tommy.irene]

You said there was no Santa.. Well we have these in Ireland..

[tommy.irene]

Now lets get back to people believing in their religion..

[evoman3957]

Religion at it's best, is a Candle for those who are scared of the dark. In itself, harmless and no bad thing; but a human hand needs to make and light the Candle, to give others the comfort.

[lambsy_uk]

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

"Do conflicts actually exist in greater numbers now than in the past?

Yes, you only have to look at the 2 world wars. Previous to those there has never been war on such a great scale, since those 2 wars there are more parts of the world at war now than there ever has been since the world began."

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Really?! Firstly the two World Wars were in the past, well in the past now as there are not many alive today who fought in them.

I'll point you to something Evoman mentioned earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

This points to the top 33 conflicts by death toll, six of which have taken place during my lifetime, and a list of 11 genocides, 3 of which have taken place during my lifetime and all of these being civil wars/conflicts within a single country.

Conflicts of the past were far more prevelant and wide-reaching than those of today!

Also have a look at this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_wars_by_date, go see how many conflicts there were in previous centuries compared to now, it is quite staggering!

[lambsy_uk]

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@tommy.irene wrote:

Now lets get back to people believing in their religion..

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How about getting back to the original argument that is religion holds a status way above that which it merits!!!

[**bustysinclaire**]

It's a complete waste of time trying to instil any logic into the beliefs of those who persist in believing the impossible.

Ditto.

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@bankhaunter wrote:

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

lol xxx

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I think you have demonstrated the strength of your argument.

There are a couple of things about the story that slightly puzzle me, why is there no mention of fish, is it because the writers were not aware the desalination of the oceans would have killed them off and assumed fish would easily survive, also how is it that corals would have undoubtly also been killed off and we know that is not the case but then of course again corals were something the writers had no knowledge of.

The other thing in lighter vein but did God really expect Noah to believe a rainbow was a good sign since it must have been raining at the time?

When I was very young it was the tradition at Christmas to have a pillow case at the end of the bed for Santa Claus to leave small gifts, sweets etc, larger presents were handed out later in the day and would be piled up under the tree.

One Christmas having reached the age when doubt as to the existence of Santa was creeping in, I decided to prove it one way or the other.

I had a fireplace in my room so reasoned that if I prevented anyone entering the room I would find out on the principle that no presents = no Santa.

I put a stool under the door handle and in the morning there were presents but the stool had obviously been moved, I had my answer.

When you are faced with an incredible claim you need real evidence not just someone's say so. Just because several people say the same is not evidence if their words are from the same source, they have to be verifiable.

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The strength of my argument? sorry but no matter how I argue you would not be swayed. So it is as CD stated you get to the point where you are wasting your time.

People are so closed to the concept of there being a superior Almighty being that they owe their whole life to that they will not listen to logical reason and refute any plain and simple logic even if it stares them in the face. Evidence is all around us but you just don't want to see it.

You do all make interesting points and your knowlege of all kinds of different subjects is wonderful and on the face of it very concvincing but........You are all missing one vital point, God being this Superior Almighty Being has the untold power to accomplish anything he so desires.All the questions you posed Bank and saasher in your posts would have been dealt with. God instructed Noah in every single little detail, all his tools and materials, plans and provisions would have been supplied.

And while the ark was being constructed Noah had complete faith in God that he did not question any outcome. He knew he was in safe hands,

I am sorry, but all this means is, are we humble enough to accept that mankind needs God to survive?

We have had 2,000 odd years to prove that we can govern ourselves but you only have to look at the overall state of life and this planet and know we haven't done a very good job. War, famine, greed, lack of love for fellow man, disasters, polution, disease, deformities, selfishness, the list could go on, and take death you would think with all our superior inteligence we would have been able to conquour death.

Well, am am pleased to say, I have made my choice, I accept I need God, that I appreciate the life he has given me and look forward to a time when this world will be restored back to how it was intended to be.

Anyone who wishes that, there is always a warm and welcoming invitation to come and join us.

Anyone who wishes to choose not to, then that is their choice, I for one respect that.  

[bankhaunter]

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

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@tommy.irene wrote:

Now lets get back to people believing in their religion..

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How about getting back to the original argument that is religion holds a status way above that which it merits!!!

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You mean like bishops of the Church of England automatically getting seats in the House of Lords?

Or church leaders thinking the dictates of their particular church entitles them to try affecting law makers in ways based only on their faith.

The title of Reverend or Father should not infer the person is worthy of respect, they are no different than anyone else.

[bankhaunter]

We have had 2,000 odd years to prove that we can govern ourselves but you only have to look at the overall state of life and this planet and know we haven't done a very good job.

I don't think you can say that at all, once the shackles of the church were shaken off, science has progressed mankind in leaps and bounds, the lifespan of most people in the world has massively increased, in the western world, a healthy child born today can have a reasonably life expectation of 90 - 100 years, a great increase on the past.

There is a gravestone in a Huddersfield churchyard which bears the names of the first wife and eleven children who died at various times during Victoria's reign, that would not happen today.

You can look back over years of conflict but take away those conflicts which took place over religious differences and you get a somewhat different story, belief in a god has largely made things worse not better.

You are all missing one vital point, God being this Superior Almighty Being has the untold power to accomplish anything he so desires.

Then why does he seem to be bothered about Satan, a being which he created, he just needs to snap his fingers and poof no problem.

As for logic I give you Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.

Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

Incidentally free will with threats of dreadful punishment if it is exercised, is not free will.

If God is not willing to manifest himself why should I care about him?

To all intents and purposes something that cannot be examined doesn't exist, what you take as God speaking to you could just as easily be a delusion.

[rose2008-2008]

Funny thing about Religion and Faith,,, people dont go to church or actively voice how much they dislike church and then when a tradgedy happens or illness or trouble they start going to mass and getting involved with the church again!!. I know several people who have done this. I was raised Catholic and was told i must go to mass every Sunday. When i got older i told my mum and dad i was not going to go anymore as its not for me. Later i had someone say " you will go back to the church one day". I could almost hear the Lightening Bolts cracking down beside me!!!!!. A bit DOOMLADEN to say that to someone i thought but anyway!!!. I have not gone back yet!!.

[lambsy_uk]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

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@tommy.irene wrote:

Now lets get back to people believing in their religion..

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How about getting back to the original argument that is religion holds a status way above that which it merits!!!

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You mean like bishops of the Church of England automatically getting seats in the House of Lords?

Or church leaders thinking the dictates of their particular church entitles them to try affecting law makers in ways based only on their faith.

The title of Reverend or Father should not infer the person is worthy of respect, they are no different than anyone else.

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Yes they are good examples.

[lambsy_uk]

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

We have had 2,000 odd years to prove that we can govern ourselves but you only have to look at the overall state of life and this planet and know we haven't done a very good job. War, famine, greed, lack of love for fellow man, disasters, polution, disease, deformities, selfishness, the list could go on, and take death you would think with all our superior inteligence we would have been able to conquour death.

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The state of this planet is great, the planet is awesome!

Love for fellow man is demonstrated daily, most disasters are of natural causes as are diseases and deformaties. Selflessness outweighs selfishness and I don't believe your list does go on!

Why would you suggest that death should be able to be conquored by our inteligence?

If you wish to take a negative view of things; war, famine, greed etc. then what is god supposed to be doing to sort us out?! He's had over 2000 years to do it, surely with his superior inteligence he'd have sorted us out by now!!!

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

We have had 2,000 odd years to prove that we can govern ourselves but you only have to look at the overall state of life and this planet and know we haven't done a very good job. War, famine, greed, lack of love for fellow man, disasters, polution, disease, deformities, selfishness, the list could go on, and take death you would think with all our superior inteligence we would have been able to conquour death.

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The state of this planet is great, the planet is awesome!

Love for fellow man is demonstrated daily, most disasters are of natural causes as are diseases and deformaties. Selflessness outweighs selfishness and I don't believe your list does go on!

Why would you suggest that death should be able to be conquored by our inteligence?

If you wish to take a negative view of things; war, famine, greed etc. then what is god supposed to be doing to sort us out?! He's had over 2000 years to do it, surely with his superior inteligence he'd have sorted us out by now!!!

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The state of this planet is quite poor compared to what it once was because there are manmade problems of pollution wrecking the water, salt and fresh. The rain forest is diminishing at an alarming rate, many countries battered and war torn, with famine and droughts very prevalent. Terrible storms, Huge destructive waves, earthquakes. This world won't be able to take much more.  It is very sad to hear so much of the I'm alright Jack mentality. You go tell that starving little girl in the midst of her parched waterless wartorn wasteland of a country who's belly is so distended she is in agony that this planet is just fine and dandy I am sure you won't get the reply you would soo want to hear.

Yes OK, love for fellow man is demonstrated daily but along side vicious hatred. What is the cause of war then I ask you, that certainly isn't love for fellow man. How would you explain why Hiroshima occurred?  Why did Saddam Hussein's own people want rid of him? Why, if you believe in Jesus Christ was he nailed up and slaughtered?  HATRED.

You say selflessness outweighs selfishness.......in Gods order of things there will be no selfishness at all.

Deformities and diseases are a result of us being so far removed from Jehovah so we are no longer perfect. If time was allowed to go on much longer as it is we will eventually die out, because the planet will not keep us sustained, due to resources running out.

Scince can and does wonderful things, why wouldn't you feel death could not be conquered then? Although I am quite pleased that you admit it wouldn't be. Only Jehovah has the power and the desire to fulfill that one, he has promised it, he has even guaranteed it.

God has been working all of those years setting a solution in place. He has had to take time so as to include everyone in that solution, but now time is near. Jehovah will be bringing about the conclusion very soon. An end to wickedness and the restoration of a righteous new world is just on the horizon. If you did care to study the scriptures in the Bible you would find that the world events of today are the fulfilment of the prophesies regarding God's restoration and Judgements. So I am noway taking a negative view at all, but is is plain to see this world is dying. It is a beautiful planet and man is ruining it. I am really quite surprised that people with so much intelligence cannot see how the eco system is being destroyed.

[bankhaunter]

Terrible storms, Huge destructive waves, earthquakes.

Don't you believe they were created by your god? You can't blame pollution for such as the destruction of Pompeii or Krakatoa the largest explosion ever recorded on the planet, four times larger than the most powerful thermonuclear device with a shockwave that went seven times round the world along with massive destruction only limited by the size of the population although as it was an estimated 36,417 died.

Earthquakes and the tsunamis they cause are a result of purely natural events no way does man's activities cause them, they are caused by the movement of tectonic plates, terrible storms are just weather patterns although those patterns may be affected by global warning
.

If God made the earth as a home for his creation of man, he made an appallingly bad job of it.

Deformities and diseases are a result of us being so far removed from Jehovah so we are no longer perfect.

Odd isn't it how believers state God created everything but conveniently ignore the fact that he must therefore have created the harmful bacteria and viruses that cause disease and that deformities are a result of an imperfect creation.

If I deny God does a pathogenic bacteria spring into existence or was it always there?

That remark makes me think of the survivors of the large Pakistani earthquake that say it happened because they didn't lead a good enough life, the fact they lived on a known fault line presumably had nothing to do with it.

As soon as it is examined critically, nothing about a belief in a god makes any sense.