Should Faith/Religion Have Such a High Value In Our Society?

[lambsy_uk]

I'm not here to trample all over people's faith/beliefs but to ask if/why such beliefs should hold such high value in our society?

So where am I comming from? Well we can freely question almost anything in our society/lives; morals, political beliefs, actions and reactions, motivations, interactions, foreign policy, education, welfare, how we raise our children, law and order and so on..........

However we are positively discouraged from questioning people's faith/beliefs/religion! We are also actively encouraged to accommodate and allow for people's religious beliefs, and this is the bit that really irks me! Why is it that if something is done in the name of a religious belief/practice then we are expected to accept it with little fuss where if any other excuse were used we'd be up in arms?

We endure arguments of whether animal rights should take precedence over religion, whether saving the life of a child should take precedence over their parent's beliefs, should freedom of expression take precedence over religious sensitivities?

For me you may as well base stuff on the football team you support;

"I can't comply with the company dress code because I'm a United fan and therefore I must be allowed to wear a United shirt at work."

As far as I'm concerned this is no more ridiculous than anything done/not done in the name of religious beliefs!

So why do religious beliefs hold such high status and is it right that they do?

[bankhaunter]

Being obedient was the way to show their appreciation and acceptance of Jehovahs Authority.

How could God expect them to be obedient when he already knew what they were going to do beforehand?

Also to be disobedient implies the knowledge that not obeying is wrong and until they ate the fruit, they did not have knowledge of right and wrong.

[saasher2012]

It seems that if you go against this god & eat an apple which he forbade, you are punished with death, painful childbirth etc, & yet this Satan who has in your faith caused all this pain, suffering & temptation has been allowed to get away with it for all these centuries. It's neither fair nor logical is it?. Are we to believe this is a just God!. I don't think so.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@electric*mayhem*band wrote:

Waiting for a response from BS to Margs, Harry, and Saasher...* meanwhile goes back to reading 'Alice in Wonderland' *

'There are Fairies at the bottom of my garden'. (Anon).

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lol xxxx

I love alice in wonderland.   xx

[merehazle]

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@merehazle wrote:

Hello Busty.     This is also partly in reply to your #489: 

God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to Him, ''Lord, we don't need you anymore.

Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing.

In other words, we can now do what you did in the 'beginning'.''

''Oh, is that so? Tell me...'' replies God.

''Well, says the scientist, ''we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of You and breathe life into it,

 thus creating man.''

 ''Well, that's interesting. Show Me.''  So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.

''No, no, no...'' interrupts God,  Get your own dirt.''

Really not a joke at all, but rather reality Busty.

And as Spock might say do you see the ''logic''? It's true though isn't it... if it's illogical, it's illogical. Science, is only  searching for the TRUTH. 

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Hello AGAIN Busty. You seem to have missed my little bit above which I posted earlier. When you have done evo's at # 519 perhaps.  (brilliant! EVO).

You might look at wot I rote.  I do poetry too don't you know?  Steve & Tommy will tell you.....ahem!  

Oh, no hurry. I will be back tomorrow.  Just give a wink if you want some Well it might be a little light relief for YOU?  (hard work isn't it dear ) I wish you luck, but I think this may be the longest thread ever.

No, I'm only joking Busty.  My deep sympathies for your loss of your dear father.  Good night.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
Not haughty! Just can't understand why a faith that in human years is in its infancy considers itself superior to any other& also has the arrogance to also think they are the chosen ones excluding all others,also that all the people who live good useful lives & harm no one are considered unworthy to this God of yours. Rather selective don't you think?
At least the Christian God promises all sins will be forgiven & all will enter the Kingdom of heaven!.
Soooooo! I ask again as do other posters , not out of haughtiness , but genuine interest & no rancour, why is JW the only true faith , why like all these cults do they originate in America, also returning to the Watchtower link if women are of value to your faith why are they not allowed to hold high office in your meetings? They certainly seem worthy enough to carry the word in pairs door to door at weekends?

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JW's are not at all superior of think they are we were all made equal.

It is not arrogance to believe in a promise.

There are many good people who do very good things but they exclude themselves as they do not wish to recognise Jehovah's Sovereignty.

Not at all selective, everyone is given the same chance.

Worldly religions have not got the power and Authority to forgive any sins as they themselves are mere sinful men. All have the same opportunity as the next man/women to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, that being everlasting life under God's Heavenly Government. Life in actual Heaven for 144,000 and the rest on earth.

JW's are just witnesses of Jehovah who try to follow all of God's principals and given through God's word in the bible (I believe the Bible to be God's word) all other religions are worldly religions who do not follow God's word completely and "cherry pick" as some describe it, the bits they like and discard the bits they don't. God is not partial, any from any race creed or colour etc is accepted.

As for originating from America, I thought did the Jews come from America? I do know that Brother Russell did but he was just continuing with what had gone many years before. If you know the scriptures well that would be very clear.

As for women in the congregation, we don't have the privilege of being Elders or Ministerial servants because it is a mark of respecting the headship within Jehovah's arrangement. The Head of the House is the Man, The head of Man and the Congregation is the Christ, The head of the Christ is Jehovah God. It has got nothing to do with the women being any less worthy than a male. We are Gods fellow workers and men and women are ministers as we both go out in the preaching work.

There is certainly nothing like the so called High Office as you are talking about. Just some brothers have certain responsibilities assigned to them because of there exemplary faith and love for God.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

In that regard then Bank you are clearly being influenced,  blinded and controlled by Satan. He is the cause of you not willing to accept that you have a chance to be included in the paradise and everlasting life that God has promised.

Two things.

Firstly Satan doesn't exist, he is just an invention to explain God's apparent failure to those who believe there is a God.

Secondly, have you ever thought of what the word 'everlasting' actually means and that there is nothing which can be imagined that would not pall after a few lifetimes let alone eternity.

What you are expecting/hoping for would be nothing better than torture of the mind, there are things worse than death, everlasting boredom would certainly be one of them.

If paradise is all you know it cannot be paradise.

Satan does know he has a very short time left,

If you are banking on things you have been told about Armageddon then forget it, like the Bible and various cults etc., JWs are noted for failed predictions.

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php

I do consider the fictional character of God as portrayed in the Bible, as a moral monster, it's not hard to do it would be hard to find any non believers who have a lower moral standard.

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1. Yes he does.

2. Everlasting is just that, Live life for ever death will be no more. Who said we will not have things to do, our lives will be perfect, and there will be no limit to what we will be able to do and accomplish. It is only as we are now, limited in life span and capability in strength and mentality that we cannot quite imagine anything better. the world will be our oyster.

We are now in a more privileged position than that of any before us because we are living in a world where it can only get better so we will see for ourselves how things will become a paradise and actually play a part in making it.

I choose not to forget it, I am happy to wait on Jehovah knowing he will fulfill all he promised. Your link is created by someone who rejects Jehovah God so of course what is written wont be supporting God's word.

I do consider the fictional character of God as portrayed in the Bible, as a moral monster, it's not hard to do it would be hard to find any non believers who have a lower moral standard.

That my dear is entirely up to you.  xxxx

[bankhaunter]

Yes he does.

That's just your assertion, you have nothing to back it up with.

Who said we will not have things to do, our lives will be perfect, and there will be no limit to what we will be able to do and accomplish

What would be the point of doing anything if you cannot fail, where would be any sense of accomplishment come from?

And how about some evidence there is an afterlife, I wouldn't go on holiday anywhere unless I had evidence the place actually existed first.

[bankhaunter]

One of the ways your cult controls it's members.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@astrologica wrote:
Hello Busty. Regarding Bank's reason for becoming an Atheist, I would say that I became an Atheist for mostly the same reasons. So if Banks is being blinded, influenced and controlled by Satan, then I must be too. I don't feel the least bit blinded or controlled. In fact, after 30 years plus of studying various religions , trying to find one that makes any sense, I now feel totally at peace with myself as an Atheist. One thing I have noted....in one post you say Satan will be destroyed...in another you say that he will be locked up for a thousand (human) years. Locking him up will not destroy him will it? Just an observation!
Reading your posts, and having exchanged posts with you in the past, it seems to me that there must be some payback for you for your absolute faith, apart from the Eternal life etc, etc. I think I mentioned before, that I have a friend who was a JW, who has now left the church. She is happier than she has ever been. She had to end her marriage to achieve this happiness as she was controlled by the Church and her devout JW husband. She said to me that she feels that most of her female ex-friends (they do not want to know her now) are in a sort of insular bubble, completely enclosed and enfolded by the JW Church. This gives them some sort of comfort and feeling of safety, but it completely closes them off from all sorts of experiences. She is so happy these days...she says it is as if she has escaped a prison and found her wings. She says that none of her friends would have the courage to leave because they would be cast adrift.
I would like to ask if you have any close friends who are not JW's? Do you join in any activities socially with people who are not JW's?
I hope you won't think these are impertinent questions!

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I am glad you feel at peace Astro.  xx

On the subject of Satan, yes I did say he will be destroyed and he will be locked up for a thousand years. These are both the case.

After the great trubulation (Armeggedon, when the ressorrection of the dead has taken place satan will be abyssed  - locked up with his demons so they cannot influence mankind and lead them astray, mankind will then be able learn about Jehovah if they haven't already and work towards perfection, then after the thousand years Satan will be let loose for a little while (I don't recall a specific time being mentioned the bible just states a little while) he will of course then try and do what he does best, that means everyone will be in the similar position as Adam and Eve was, perfect. Satan and his demons will then be destroyed along with anyone who then rejects Jehovah.

I read with Sadness about your friend but if she has found happiness then I am pleased for her. I do understand what you are trying to say about disfellowshipping etc. Disfellowshipping is always a last resort but some do choose it that way and as I have said before it is a choice we were allowed.

I cannot say I experience the same in the faith as your friend as my OH is not a Jehovah's Witness, I took notice of the faith and was baptised quite a while after we married. We get on  fine I love him very much and I know he does love me very much although he has no interest in the faith. He isn't an atheist though.

I am happy for you to ask personal questions and I don't find them impertinent or offensive in any way.

I don't find I am in prison, but I do find it hard at times because I am imperfect but I do know I must keep trying to stay faithful and want to, because I do love and appreciate my creator.  I do find I feel safe and protected from many of the sad things of this system, I do admit that the Bible teaches "Be no part of the world" that means although we have to live in this world we should keep away from mixing with people who don't follow the same principals. One scripture that comes to mind that explains it well is "Bad association spoils useful habits."

I do have non JW friends but don't socialise a lot with them, I am very much a family person and my time and energy is happily taken up with family things and spiritual things as that is how I choose it, I am quite happy with my own company too so don't need to socialise a lot. My friends are on the whole good caring people, I will invite them around for tea and meals etc but things like birthdays are not celebrated, I can make up for that by giving in other ways. They also are very tolerant of me and my faith and I love them very much. 

I am sad that they are not interested in the faith like I am but I respect their choices. I also don't try to preach at them all the time, if a good opportunity to witness arises then if they show they would like it to go further then I will but I respect their wishes if they state it is not welcome. They know if anytime they do have a question they are always welcome to come to me but I won't force anything on them.xxxxxx

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@merehazle wrote:

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@merehazle wrote:

Hello Busty.     This is also partly in reply to your #489: 

God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to Him, ''Lord, we don't need you anymore.

Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing.

In other words, we can now do what you did in the 'beginning'.''

''Oh, is that so? Tell me...'' replies God.

''Well, says the scientist, ''we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of You and breathe life into it,

 thus creating man.''

 ''Well, that's interesting. Show Me.''  So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.

''No, no, no...'' interrupts God,  Get your own dirt.''

Really not a joke at all, but rather reality Busty.

And as Spock might say do you see the ''logic''? It's true though isn't it... if it's illogical, it's illogical. Science, is only  searching for the TRUTH. 

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Hello AGAIN Busty. You seem to have missed my little bit above which I posted earlier. When you have done evo's at # 519 perhaps.  (brilliant! EVO).

You might look at wot I rote.  I do poetry too don't you know?  Steve & Tommy will tell you.....ahem!  

Oh, no hurry. I will be back tomorrow.  Just give a wink if you want some Well it might be a little light relief for YOU?  (hard work isn't it dear ) I wish you luck, but I think this may be the longest thread ever.

No, I'm only joking Busty.  My deep sympathies for your loss of your dear father.  Good night.

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lol, merehazle.

I did read it, wasn't really sure at the time how to reply lol  xx

I agree science is only seeking the truth, but many scientists think they know it all when in reality they don't because they have interpreted things in the wrong way so drawn wrong conclusions, but gone further than that and stated their conclusions are fact.

I do undestand your illustration, and in some respects I see it to have some truth in it. But if it was the case Jehovah would explain things in a far more loving and understanding merciful caring way.

Thank you for your kind sympathies too, It is really a welcome release for my Dad and us as a familly,  we were certainly not meant to grow old and die and especially not in such horrific circumstances. I can take comfort in knowing my faith holds out a solution. xxxx

[cee-dee]

Lets, have a good look at the answers to the questions raised and what do you see?

Evasion, side-stepping and quite frankly, totally ignoring many, many questions.

Why is that? Because there are no answers that will stand up to scrutiny?

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Lets, have a good look at the answers to the questions raised and what do you see?

Evasion, side-stepping and quite frankly, totally ignoring many, many questions.

Why is that? Because there are no answers that will stand up to scrutiny?

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I'm sorry if you see it that way. CD

My answers are genuine, no attempt to side step or evade. I do admit to not answering every post though tis hard to keep up when were on a roll lol xxx Don't think I am doing too badly though. xxx

[cee-dee]

You didn't answer this even after it was pointed out to you:-

ALL the stories are Man-made.

Show me one, just ONE story that isn't Man-made?

If Man, wrote it down after ages spent recounting it, how is it not Man-made?

Man can say anything he chooses, whether it's true or false is open to question.

If something can be proved beyond doubt, it's true.

If it cannot be proved beyond doubt, believing such a story is a matter of belief/faith.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@cee-dee wrote:

You didn't answer this even after it was pointed out to you:-

ALL the stories are Man-made.

Show me one, just ONE story that isn't Man-made?

If Man, wrote it down after ages spent recounting it, how is it not Man-made?

Man can say anything he chooses, whether it's true or false is open to question.

If something can be proved beyond doubt, it's true.

If it cannot be proved beyond doubt, believing such a story is a matter of belief/faith.

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With the greatest of respect CD, you have quite a few times stated/asked this and I have answered to the best of my ability several times  how I believe these stories are not man made.

Each time you refute it.

That is up to you if you take what I answer as untrue, I have no control over that.

So please forgive me this time if I choose not to continue to try and answer again and again.  xxx

[bankhaunter]

Disfellowshipping is always a last resort but some do choose it that way and as I have said before it is a choice we were allowed.

Is that the same strange use of the word 'choose' that is used when christians say a person 'chooses' to go to Hell?

The person who is disfellowshipped does not choose to be so, that's the choice of the other Witnesses, they are the ones who do the disfellowshipping, they are the ones exercising a choice.

It's cowardly to blame the victim.

[bankhaunter]

I missed this one

 Your link is created by someone who rejects Jehovah God so of course what is written wont be supporting God's word.

So the information in that link is untrue?

There is nothing there that cannot be verified., it cannot be denied or simply dismissed, sometimes truth hurts.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

Disfellowshipping is always a last resort but some do choose it that way and as I have said before it is a choice we were allowed.

Is that the same strange use of the word 'choose' that is used when christians say a person 'chooses' to go to Hell?

The person who is disfellowshipped does not choose to be so, that's the choice of the other Witnesses, they are the ones who do the disfellowshipping, they are the ones exercising a choice.

It's cowardly to blame the victim.

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The one who is disfellopwhipped has chosen a course that they know to be against the principals of God, they are given plenty of time council, help and support to guide them and help them to repent. If they do not wish to or accept their wrong doing then as a last resort they are disfellowshipped. It is only usually a serious wrong doing with no repentance that a disfellowshipping is the final out come.

They are not a victim, they are a human being treated with love and care. The disfellowshipping is an outcome to ultimately help them into realising the seriousness of their wrong doing. But the final choice to stay on that path is theirs.

[bankhaunter]

They are not a victim, they are a human being treated with love and care.

'Love and care' wow! More words with a totally different meaning than that which most people would put on them, how is being ostracised by your own family and your friends showing love and care?

The disfellowshipping is an outcome to ultimately help them into realising the seriousness of their wrong doing

Disfellowship is an action designed to put undue pressure on the person disfellowshipped, it's form of bullying when done and control when threatened by those who are so insecure they don't think their beliefs have sufficient merit to stand on their own,

Try as you might you cannot get away from the fact that those who make the rules do the choosing.

[saasher2012]

The fact that JW. Considers all other religions to be inferior in carrying out their teachings smacks of superiority .
I didn't say they were arrogant in trying to carry out a promise only that they think all other faiths are wrong except theirs.
Sooooo! Even if you lead a good blameless life you are excluded unless you are a JW, not a very good argument .
Yes the choice is this , comply or be excluded, also not a good argument smacks of a veiled threat!.
"Jews "I believe the clue is in the name, I think you should study your Bible again ,unlike the infant JW cult the Jewish religion is one of the oldest & JC was a Jew.
No! I don't claim to know the scriptures well, I'm not a believer I do know this though the first part of the bible " the Old Testament , " is Jewish , "The New Testament" is Christian!.
Although in fairness I do agree the Christian faith does cherry pick in its efforts to move with the times.
You say or intimate that JW, do not discriminate but that's not quite true is it?
This also applies to women if the links ive read are to be believed.
I've said before & I still say. If you have faith then good for you!.i just don't believe & the JW cult makes me even more a non believer,
I admire your persistence but the Ratio of non believers that come forward to ask questions compared to the faithful speak for themselves, I also notice the absence of Christians who also don't come forward, could it be they are happy not to because they are comfortable in their faith & have no need to try & convince preferring people to make up their minds without threats of retribution if they don't?

[saasher2012]

I started to read this link but lost interest as the list started with the JW believe that faith will heal ailments & then went on to say advancements in medicine , surgery etc , bit of a contradiction that isn't it?.