11-06-2014 10:24 AM
I'm not here to trample all over people's faith/beliefs but to ask if/why such beliefs should hold such high value in our society?
So where am I comming from? Well we can freely question almost anything in our society/lives; morals, political beliefs, actions and reactions, motivations, interactions, foreign policy, education, welfare, how we raise our children, law and order and so on..........
However we are positively discouraged from questioning people's faith/beliefs/religion! We are also actively encouraged to accommodate and allow for people's religious beliefs, and this is the bit that really irks me! Why is it that if something is done in the name of a religious belief/practice then we are expected to accept it with little fuss where if any other excuse were used we'd be up in arms?
We endure arguments of whether animal rights should take precedence over religion, whether saving the life of a child should take precedence over their parent's beliefs, should freedom of expression take precedence over religious sensitivities?
For me you may as well base stuff on the football team you support;
"I can't comply with the company dress code because I'm a United fan and therefore I must be allowed to wear a United shirt at work."
As far as I'm concerned this is no more ridiculous than anything done/not done in the name of religious beliefs!
So why do religious beliefs hold such high status and is it right that they do?
07-07-2014 12:03 PM
@**bustysinclaire** wrote:
@saasher2012 wrote:
Just goes to prove how religion does your head in, just because you are a non believer doesn't mean you go about doing bad things!Quite a lot of truth in that bit saasher.
But what does set true christians apart from the bad and non believers is their pro activeness alongside the the good principles they claim to live by. Actions speak louder than words, so if you state you are a true christian (or a good person) then you show it by your actions and not just by word alone. You don't just state oh I don't do bad things you make a big effort in proving it. ie living by God's standards, and those standards are not the ones that worldly religions think they adhere to either.
Why?!
Why should you have to show that you're a Christian, can't you be a Christian in private? Why should you have to prove to others that you don't do bad things?! Is is not enough just to not do bad things without having to make sure everyone else knows about it?! Can't one be a Christian without outwardly showing it?
07-07-2014 12:18 PM
@merehazle wrote:
@**bustysinclaire** wrote:
it's called a CONS CIENCE. This puts us above all other animals in this world of ours
Yes it is I agree,
But that conscience was given to us by God when he made us, so you are actually living by many of God's principles whether you accept them to be or not.
Hi busty.
Animals behave by ''instinct'' and are incapable of evil? And therefore puts them above us IMO.
They cannot disern between right or wrong - therefore cannot do wrong.
We can. And look at the almighty mess we have made of their and our world.
If we are living by many of Gods principles whether we accept them or not -
with respects can you prove it? And at least don't you think these Gods might take the reins?
After all it's long been time since they did.
How about psychopaths? They are characterised by deminished empathy and remorse so does this mean they are not evil because they are lacking a conscience?
Personally I don't buy the idea that no animals hold any kind of conscience and have zero concept of right and wrong!
I also don't buy the all too often exclaimed pronouncement that "we've made an almighty mess of this World." I believe for the most part that this World is just fine and we do a decent job!
07-07-2014 4:50 PM
@lambsy_uk wrote:
@merehazle wrote:
@**bustysinclaire** wrote:
it's called a CONS CIENCE. This puts us above all other animals in this world of ours
Yes it is I agree,
But that conscience was given to us by God when he made us, so you are actually living by many of God's principles whether you accept them to be or not.
Hi busty.
Animals behave by ''instinct'' and are incapable of evil? And therefore puts them above us IMO.
They cannot disern between right or wrong - therefore cannot do wrong.
We can. And look at the almighty mess we have made of their and our world.
If we are living by many of Gods principles whether we accept them or not -
with respects can you prove it? And at least don't you think these Gods might take the reins?
After all it's long been time since they did.
How about psychopaths? They are characterised by deminished empathy and remorse so does this mean they are not evil because they are lacking a conscience?
Personally I don't buy the idea that no animals hold any kind of conscience and have zero concept of right and wrong!
I also don't buy the all too often exclaimed pronouncement that "we've made an almighty mess of this World." I believe for the most part that this World is just fine and we do a decent job!
Hello lambsy.
Well, you don't buy much it seems. Your first two lines are a reply to busty I presume? So she can answer that I'm sure.
'Personally you don't buy the idea that no animals hold any kind of conscience and have zero concept of right and wrong!'
Please just out of interest tell us why YOU think that? Well 'don't buy' is not a answer.
Before we can accept that animals have a sence of right and wrong, we need to accept that they have some form of intelligence and can understand intention and consequences. Because it's difficult to measure the motivation behind animal actions, experts are focusing on species that are considered highly intelligent, like chimpanzees. In studies, scientists have found that chimpanzees can make a distinction between ''accidental'' and ''deliberate'' actions. This could mean some animals are able to understand the meaning behind some actions (accidentally bumping into another animal versus attacking the other animal on purpose), which could explain why their reactions to these things are different.
'The world is just fine and we do a decent job' you say? Really? A God like thought. Well on the right thread anyway.
But are you really sure? Been about the world lately have we? Or watching TV from a comfortable armchair perhaps?
Thank you Lambsy. See you.
07-07-2014 6:09 PM
How about psychopaths? They are characterised by deminished empathy and remorse so does this mean they are not evil because they are lacking a conscience?
I'm not sure I would go along with the concept of evil as it is commonly used.
A person may be evil to a religious point of view even if they have broken no law or caused any harm to anyone.
08-07-2014 6:20 PM
@merehazle wrote:
How about psychopaths? They are characterised by deminished empathy and remorse so does this mean they are not evil because they are lacking a conscience?
Personally I don't buy the idea that no animals hold any kind of conscience and have zero concept of right and wrong!
I also don't buy the all too often exclaimed pronouncement that "we've made an almighty mess of this World." I believe for the most part that this World is just fine and we do a decent job!
Hello lambsy.
Well, you don't buy much it seems. Your first two lines are a reply to busty I presume? So she can answer that I'm sure.
'Personally you don't buy the idea that no animals hold any kind of conscience and have zero concept of right and wrong!'
Please just out of interest tell us why YOU think that? Well 'don't buy' is not a answer.
Before we can accept that animals have a sence of right and wrong, we need to accept that they have some form of intelligence and can understand intention and consequences. Because it's difficult to measure the motivation behind animal actions, experts are focusing on species that are considered highly intelligent, like chimpanzees. In studies, scientists have found that chimpanzees can make a distinction between ''accidental'' and ''deliberate'' actions. This could mean some animals are able to understand the meaning behind some actions (accidentally bumping into another animal versus attacking the other animal on purpose), which could explain why their reactions to these things are different.
'The world is just fine and we do a decent job' you say? Really? A God like thought. Well on the right thread anyway.
But are you really sure? Been about the world lately have we? Or watching TV from a comfortable armchair perhaps?
Thank you Lambsy. See you.
Hello Merehazel,
Don't get too hung up because I said I don't buy it rather than I don't believe it!
There are some very intelligent species out there and there are also many that live and thrive in social groups. I believe that these would harbour at least some notion to some extent of what we would call right from wrong, empathy, compassion, action and reaction, cause and effect. We build our conscience through experience and learning and I belive at least some species would have at least some sort of experience of this.
"'The world is just fine and we do a decent job' you say? Really? A God like thought."
Really?! Because that's just my thoughts and I have no notion of any link to any god.
"But are you really sure? Been about the world lately have we?"
If we have made so much of a mess of it please give an example or two!
See you!
08-07-2014 8:00 PM
Hello lambsy. I see now it's hung up? No, not in the least. But never mind.
Many people want to save the Earth, but they don't know how to do it. They don't know how to protect wild animals, plants, and how to keep water clean and air fresh. Water is very important in the life of people. There is a lot of water on our planet. And contamination is more likely the more people we have, so they say.
,
Some people's activities do a lot of harm to the forests. People cut down trees to build farms, homes and roads. Many animals and plants lose there home. Many of them die. This is bad for the air of the earth too. Modern plants and factories send a lot of smoke in the atmosphere.
This is very bad, because nowadays it's difficult to breath in big cities. That programme about China last night so many people were walking about with smog masks. (remember global warming). Polluted oceans cause squid to grow lungs. Giant garbage patches (some the size of Texas) can be found floating around in the oceans. Well that's an example. And you ask me to give just two? I haven't time now but others might want to say something?
And you ask if we have made such a mess of it please give an example of two. You really should get out more. And it is obvious your ''thoughts'' come in bits and pieces. Well on this thread.
Sorry, you took so long coming back to reply I thought you had gone round the world to look see.
But thank you. See you.
09-07-2014 1:20 PM
LOL,,, ha ha LOL.
10-07-2014 8:22 AM
@merehazle wrote:
Hello lambsy. I see now it's hung up? No, not in the least. But never mind.
Many people want to save the Earth, but they don't know how to do it. They don't know how to protect wild animals, plants, and how to keep water clean and air fresh. Water is very important in the life of people. There is a lot of water on our planet. And contamination is more likely the more people we have, so they say.
,
Some people's activities do a lot of harm to the forests. People cut down trees to build farms, homes and roads. Many animals and plants lose there home. Many of them die. This is bad for the air of the earth too. Modern plants and factories send a lot of smoke in the atmosphere.
This is very bad, because nowadays it's difficult to breath in big cities. That programme about China last night so many people were walking about with smog masks. (remember global warming). Polluted oceans cause squid to grow lungs. Giant garbage patches (some the size of Texas) can be found floating around in the oceans. Well that's an example. And you ask me to give just two? I haven't time now but others might want to say something?
And you ask if we have made such a mess of it please give an example of two. You really should get out more. And it is obvious your ''thoughts'' come in bits and pieces. Well on this thread.
Sorry, you took so long coming back to reply I thought you had gone round the world to look see.
But thank you. See you.
Yes never mind!
Saving the Earth; do you realise how rediculous that sounds?! What are they trying to save it from? Meteorite strike perhaps? The Earth has been around for about 4.5 billion years and nothing we do is going to bring about its destruction or prolong its existance. If you want to save the Earth from anything that may remotely threaten it then you'd better look to the skies!
Water is very important to human life and I believe we have the ways and means to ensure large parts of the World's population has a ready source of clean water. Some parts may struggle but that will only curtail the growth of the population and lessen the demand for such water resourses.
Pollution is bad for us, it can effect the environment in which we live and breath but it won't destroy the planet. You should be more concerned about how we look after ourselves!
Remember Global warming you say, well we don't call it that anymore, we now refer to it as climate change because it's recognised that the climate has and will always change and despite any misguided efforts to control the planet's climate it is understood that we need to come to terms with the fact that the climate will change and that we need to adapt to this!
Squids growing lungs; well I guess they'll become land dwellers in time then, that's evolution for you. Evolution is change!
Giant garbage patches the size of Texas you say. Well if you stuck that in the middle of any ocean have you any idea the percentage of the sea that would take up? It would actually take up 0.45% of the Pacific Ocean. So what about the remainder of the Pacific and all the other seas and oceans? Is a bit of floating rubish covering a miniscule amount of the Earth's seas really a sign of our catastrophic impact on the planet?!
You appear to want to spend more time attempting to ridicule me rather than actually think about what you are saying and presenting a reasoned argument! Perhaps you should get out more and open your eyes to the beauty that remains on Earth rather than seeking the insignificant negative impact that we may have on it!
Have a nice day!
10-07-2014 10:14 AM
As a poster once said it's their way or no way, end of. Oh, I Only said many people want to save the earth. If that sounds rediculous? OK, you are entitled to your opinion.
And so are others on here. (wink). You can move on now. And we can agree not to agree.
Thank you. Bye.
10-07-2014 12:48 PM
@merehazle wrote:
As a poster once said it's their way or no way, end of. Oh, I Only said many people want to save the earth. If that sounds rediculous? OK, you are entitled to your opinion.
And so are others on here. (wink). You can move on now. And we can agree not to agree.
Thank you. Bye.
My way is to question what people have said if I feel it requires clarification. If others can not provide an answer they shouldn't really expect me to agree with them! I try to support my arguments with some facts or ideas rather than just put them out there as a notion; perhaps I am naive to expect similar from others. You said many want to save the Earth, I asked what is it they want to save if from, I see I didn't get an answer. All are entitled to their opinion but I do expect them to support their opinions in some way, as I try to support mine.
I can agree to disagree but I just wanted to know why we disagree!
Have a nice day.
10-07-2014 2:45 PM
Oh dear, lets give you one more idea and I will leave it at that. If I may? Coz it gets boring.
At your post 228 among other things you said:
''The earth has been around for about 4.5 billion years and nothing we do is going to bring about its destruction or prolong its existance''. Are you sure? Are you really, really sure? (heh). Its comments like that that make me disagree.
Yes you have supported your answer with some facts or ideas. Why you can even see the future? Yes I do agree you do seem to be a just a little naive. (well if only some would answer the way you want).
And the earth has been around 4.5 million years. And we haven't. Perhaps that's just as well when you think of it. look what some have done in what a couple of thousand years.
You see you have an answer. And you ask yet again what do they want to save the earth from? Complacent **bleep**! I would guess. Oh I don't mean you. But there are some about lambsy.
See ya!
10-07-2014 3:04 PM
Giant garbage patches the size of Texas you say. Well if you stuck that in the middle of any ocean have you any idea the percentage of the sea that would take up? It would actually take up 0.45% of the Pacific Ocean. So what about the remainder of the Pacific and all the other seas and oceans? Is a bit of floating rubish covering a miniscule amount of the Earth's seas really a sign of our catastrophic impact on the planet?!
Are you sure it is that insigfificant?
A "plastic soup" of waste floating in the Pacific Ocean is growing at an alarming rate and now covers an area twice the size of the continental United States,
10-07-2014 11:16 PM
@merehazle wrote:
Oh dear, lets give you one more idea and I will leave it at that. If I may? Coz it gets boring.
At your post 228 among other things you said:
''The earth has been around for about 4.5 billion years and nothing we do is going to bring about its destruction or prolong its existance''. Are you sure? Are you really, really sure? (heh). Its comments like that that make me disagree.
Yes you have supported your answer with some facts or ideas. Why you can even see the future? Yes I do agree you do seem to be a just a little naive. (well if only some would answer the way you want).
And the earth has been around 4.5 million years. And we haven't. Perhaps that's just as well when you think of it. look what some have done in what a couple of thousand years.
You see you have an answer. And you ask yet again what do they want to save the earth from? Complacent **bleep**! I would guess. Oh I don't mean you. But there are some about lambsy.
See ya!
Oh dear! Yes I am sure! The Earth will still be orbiting the Sun for more years than you can imagine and nothing we do will change that!
Later!
10-07-2014 11:18 PM
@bankhaunter wrote:Giant garbage patches the size of Texas you say. Well if you stuck that in the middle of any ocean have you any idea the percentage of the sea that would take up? It would actually take up 0.45% of the Pacific Ocean. So what about the remainder of the Pacific and all the other seas and oceans? Is a bit of floating rubish covering a miniscule amount of the Earth's seas really a sign of our catastrophic impact on the planet?!
Are you sure it is that insigfificant?
A "plastic soup" of waste floating in the Pacific Ocean is growing at an alarming rate and now covers an area twice the size of the continental United States,
I don't know how significant Banky, I wasn't the one who said it was the size of Texas. Anyway, although not ideal it won't bring about the end of the World!
11-07-2014 9:06 AM
Anyway, although not ideal it won't bring about the end of the World!
But it could bring about the end of a world that anyone would want to live in, one where everybody could enjoy the prospect of a long and healthy life.
When we find out we have poisoned ourselves it will be too late to do anything about it.
These pollutants act as chemical sponges attracting man-made chemicals such as hydrocarbons and the pesticide DDT. They then enter the food chain. "What goes into the ocean goes into these animals and onto your dinner plate. It's that simple," said Dr Eriksen.
11-07-2014 9:29 AM
@bankhaunter wrote:Anyway, although not ideal it won't bring about the end of the World!
But it could bring about the end of a world that anyone would want to live in, one where everybody could enjoy the prospect of a long and healthy life.
When we find out we have poisoned ourselves it will be too late to do anything about it.
These pollutants act as chemical sponges attracting man-made chemicals such as hydrocarbons and the pesticide DDT. They then enter the food chain. "What goes into the ocean goes into these animals and onto your dinner plate. It's that simple," said Dr Eriksen.
That's the point I have made before, God will never allow mankind to succeed in bringing an end to the world (planet) he will step in and bring to ruin those ruining the earth. Rev. 11:18
11-07-2014 10:17 AM
I'm not sure that can be relied on.
Especially as there are no signs that he has bothered to do much in the past 2000 years apart from watch as his badly made planet does it's best to kill thousands of people at regular intervals.
I would say he is a somewhat unreliable guardian going by that evidence.
11-07-2014 10:50 AM
When oh when is all this ridiculous nonsense going to end?
All this "god" stuff is the invention of Man, no more, no less.
People believe what they want to believe.
If this "god" won't let Man ruin the World, why does "he" have a good try at doing just that?
If "he" controls everything, why does he cause vocanoes to erupt, destroying lots of the World and killing lots of people who hadn't caused any problem in their part of the World and why, (for instance) did he cause toxic gas to escape from lakes in Camaroon killing over 1000 people and their animals, people who'd done no harm to the World. Why did "he" cause the under-sea earthquake in the Indian Ocean which produced the tidal wave that destroyed large tracts of land and property killing over 200,000 people? "Ours is not to reason why" won't do as an answer either.
The World will end in about 5 billion years time when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen and starts converting Helium to Carbon causing the outer layers of the Sun to expand and the heat consuming the inner Planets. If it doesn't consume this Planet, it'll certainly roast it and everything on it!!
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
11-07-2014 12:45 PM
@cee-dee wrote:When oh when is all this ridiculous nonsense going to end?
All this "god" stuff is the invention of Man, no more, no less.
People believe what they want to believe.
If this "god" won't let Man ruin the World, why does "he" have a good try at doing just that?
If "he" controls everything, why does he cause vocanoes to erupt, destroying lots of the World and killing lots of people who hadn't caused any problem in their part of the World and why, (for instance) did he cause toxic gas to escape from lakes in Camaroon killing over 1000 people and their animals, people who'd done no harm to the World. Why did "he" cause the under-sea earthquake in the Indian Ocean which produced the tidal wave that destroyed large tracts of land and property killing over 200,000 people? "Ours is not to reason why" won't do as an answer either.
The World will end in about 5 billion years time when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen and starts converting Helium to Carbon causing the outer layers of the Sun to expand and the heat consuming the inner Planets. If it doesn't consume this Planet, it'll certainly roast it and everything on it!!
With the greatest of respect to you CD,Bank and others who have been posting with similar sentiments all I can say is, time and again you ask the same questions and I answer with sound feasable answers and you just won't acknowlege them.
I can only give you the facts, I cannot make you believe them. You will see soon enough that God is carrying out his promises, but sadly for many it will be too late.
How sad that will be.
11-07-2014 12:49 PM
@bankhaunter wrote:Anyway, although not ideal it won't bring about the end of the World!
But it could bring about the end of a world that anyone would want to live in, one where everybody could enjoy the prospect of a long and healthy life.
When we find out we have poisoned ourselves it will be too late to do anything about it.
These pollutants act as chemical sponges attracting man-made chemicals such as hydrocarbons and the pesticide DDT. They then enter the food chain. "What goes into the ocean goes into these animals and onto your dinner plate. It's that simple," said Dr Eriksen.
And so we die out, yet one more species to become extinct, planet Earth will get over it though!