Perhaps Britain has always had a problem knowing who their friends are !!

[evoman3957]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/495638/We-ll-buy-migrants-ferry-tickets-to-Britain-says-Calais-depu...

[saasher2012]

With the greatest of respect !! Of course I'm not what a preposterous thing to say! All I'm trying to say is it seems as though we are a soft touch! You seem to enjoy twisting what people have to say!
We may not have your eloquence of speech but our points of view are just as valid as yours even if you don't agree with them!!.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@saasher2012 wrote:
With the greatest of respect !! Of course I'm not what a preposterous thing to say! All I'm trying to say is it seems as though we are a soft touch! You seem to enjoy twisting what people have to say!
We may not have your eloquence of speech but our points of view are just as valid as yours even if you don't agree with them!!.

---

Saasher - I agree with much of what you are saying but you have to accept the practicalities when it comes to implementing those principles.- it is no good ignoring them.

You are right about the intentions behind the introduction of a National Health Service and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion that its services should not be available to immigrants, legal or illegal.  However unless you temper that opinion with what can happen in the real world you will come up against problems.

I accept it is a preposterous thing to suggest that anyone would allow someone to die just because they hadn't paid into a system - what though of the person suffering from TB or even just a bad bout of food poisoning - do we leave them to their own resources?

I hope you can see where I'm coming from, it's never as easy to suggest a one off solution to a complex problem.

[cee-dee]

There are several issues floating around which all come in to play for one reason or another.

First, the British have always poked their nose in to the business of another country and they keep on doing it.

We just cannot bring people who're just out of the trees in to our 21st century ideology, they're not ready for it!

We've offered "help" of one sort or another many times and in the end, those helped always bite the hand that fed/helped them.

It's fine and dandy saying that we should show humanitarian this, than and the other but really, all those other countries want is fools like us to keep on giving "aid" so that their powers-that-be can corruptly cream it off for themselves. They don't want showing anything, they want to keep doing what they've always done and that is to exploit their own people who they want to rule with a rod of iron.

Now I see some politician is saying we should bring injured children from Gaza for treatment here. The humanitarian thoughts (about that and many others) are nice, the reality of all the "help" we give is that we're fuelling their conflict and simply perpetuating it. In the end, they'll turn on us as they do with anyone (even their own) who don't exactly agree with their way-of-life/policy/actions.

We should mind our own business and police our own borders properly making it tough on anyone coming in whether legally or illegally.

[saasher2012]

Thank you CD! My sentiments exactly . The NHS is stretched enough as it is without putting extra burden on it,
& as to people coming in with TB they should not be allowed in without a clean bill of health, already a new form of TB has entered this country because of our lax attitude in letting in people who not only carry these diseases because their own country doesn't bother to vaccinate !

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@saasher2012 wrote:
Thank you CD! My sentiments exactly . The NHS is stretched enough as it is without putting extra burden on it,
& as to people coming in with TB they should not be allowed in without a clean bill of health, already a new form of TB has entered this country because of our lax attitude in letting in people who not only carry these diseases because their own country doesn't bother to vaccinate !

---

Again I agree with you but that doesn't answer the question as to what to do about those immigrants who contracted the disease whilst here - would you refuse to treat them on the NHS or leave them to their own resources likely infecting other people?

I just don't see how you could practically impose a ban on the use of NHS resources by those who have not yet paid into the system.

[saasher2012]

If they come in legally they should have to have been vaccinated & should carry a medical card to that effect, unfortunately the illegal ones will always get through & obviously will have to be treated. They have to be checked for a prison record & can be refused entry if found to have one , the same should apply for vaccinations.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@saasher2012 wrote:
If they come in legally they should have to have been vaccinated & should carry a medical card to that effect, unfortunately the illegal ones will always get through & obviously will have to be treated. They have to be checked for a prison record & can be refused entry if found to have one , the same should apply for vaccinations.

---

Really doesn't address the problem of how you would refuse NHS facilities to those who haven't paid into the system.  I gave TB as a simple example, what of someone with food poisoning, pregnancy problems, broken ankle etc. etc.

How would you propose to deal with those cases - it is easy to say immigrants shouldn't have access to the NHS -practically almost impossible to implement.

[bankhaunter]

Anyone who has left school or college and has yet to find work has not paid into the system either.

[joe_bloggs*]

What's the betting that setting up this beaurocracy to save the NHS money will actually cost more than it saves

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@bankhaunter wrote:

Anyone who has left school or college and has yet to find work has not paid into the system either.

---

I also made the point earlier in the thread that there are more people entering the benefit system via the maternity hospitals than do via immigration.

[cee-dee]

The flaw with your point there is that a large proportion (not all, I'll give you that) of the parents will have already contributed to the system.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

The flaw with your point there is that a large proportion (not all, I'll give you that) of the parents will have already contributed to the system.

---

Why is that a flaw?

[saasher2012]

As I've already stated the NHS is over stretched enough as it is, it was set up to help those who could not pay for treatment, before that they had to self medicate or ?, BUT!! It was set up for the people of this country,we pay our taxes for the same reason, I in my small way have helped educate your children & possibly your grandchildren & also helped bring them into this world even though I don't have children of my own that's how the system works, we have far too many immigrants coming in but at least if they are working are also paying into this system, I have no quarrel with that at all, as to the illegal ones well that's another matter, hard as it appears that's the chance they take by their own action. I don't have the answers but something will have to be sorted out , with the economy being as it is, the genuine hardship cases that have their benefits cut because of the system abuse, what of their hardships, it's about time we closed the doors& looked after our own vulnerable citizens & stopped worrying about what other countries think of us, we have some of the finest Drs , nurses, etc in the world, let us allow them to do their jobs without having to be frustrated that they cannot afford the latest tech because this country is too soft to say Enough is Enough no more Mr nice guy!!. Even as we speak I hear we are once again being dragged into conflict .

[saasher2012]

Further to that I have never said illegal immigrants shouldn't have treatment far from it if you drive them further underground that lays us open to further nasty diseases they may catch or bring in! But instead of keeping them in detention for months on end at our expense , that is of course if they ever turn up at all to the police station to sign in after being allowed to go free because of a loophole in the system, they should be returned to their country of origin at the earliest possible date!.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Closing the door to all immigration is certainly a viable proposal and there is no point going over the legal, moral and economic difficulties the country would face trying to introduce such a policy - I'm sure you are aware of them.

You seem happy to accept the 'system' where your taxes have paid for the education and health care for children born in the UK as well as fund the benefit system for those in need even though you have no more responsibility for them than you do for the child born elsewhere in the world.  The system works because those who can afford to live outside the system of national 'aid' in terms of education, health care, pension etc. are, by a combination of legal strictures and moral conviction, net contributors to the system.

The same argument can surely be made on a global scale - as a 'rich' country we are relatively self sufficient requiring little if anything in terms of international aid and assistance - likewise much of Europe and North America - I'm not saying that you are of this mind but many call for the UK to stop all foreign aid and other types of assistance for those countries, (and their citizens), who are in greater need than we are in order that yet more can be used for our own needs.  This is akin to the rich individual calling for their taxes to be reduced as they can pay for their own health, education, housing etc.

You only have to look at the UKIP manifestos to see that this is the direction they wish to go and as well as blocking our international commitments are also looking to reduce the social systems at a national level - for instance they are proposing education voucher refunds for those wishing to educate their own children privately.

[cee-dee]

It's a flaw because your unexplained point made it appear that you were saying that all "arrivals" at the maternity ward were people that had made no contribution. OK, so the newly arived babies have made no contribution but most of the parents had made a contribution.

[saasher2012]

Yes I am happy to contribute to our system, that is what my& others forebears fought for. I'm not going into the politics of other countries that I think was covered before in an earlier post by another poster, I am at this moment in time only interested in this country
Mainly for the reasons I stated, we have real poverty in this country, people are losing their homes through no fault of their own, we cannot sustain the influx of people arriving here. We must get our own house in order before we look to others or we will end up in the same situation as them & then we will find out who our real friends are& I don't think they will come rushing to our aid.those who give to charities abroad do so because they want to that shouldn't change nor would I want it to, it is voluntary & that's how it should be!.we as a Nation are known for our humanitarian actions & we should be proud of that.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

It's a flaw because your unexplained point made it appear that you were saying that all "arrivals" at the maternity ward were people that had made no contribution. OK, so the newly arived babies have made no contribution but most of the parents had made a contribution.

---

Precisely the point I was making - you'd hardly withdraw health care for the new born because they have made no contribution to the system.

[cee-dee]

But.......... their parents had already made contributions up front and at least one of them would continue to do so whereas the illegals had made no contributions and would continue to milk the system if they could get away with it.

[bankhaunter]

But the criteria was that only those who paid into the system should get the benefits, not if their parents had paid in or not.

What about those whose parents had never worked?