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PPI or .................

Panama Papers Investigation, or Panamagate, Panama Leaks..........................

 

Gotta love the whistleblowers.

 

The Guardian has a good article which is being updated live and contains a link to a great page by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ)

 

the_power_players

 

Scroll down to the next level of Relatives / Associates of Country Leaders and ...................... oh oopsy!

 

Guess whose daddy had off-shore goings on!

 

Then, there's a great game you can try - short and sweet - but allows you to go back and try again so you to can learn how to squirrel away the millions you have no doubt been making on eBay!

 

 


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My body is an old warehouse full of declining storage, my mind is a dusty old reference library, strictly for members and archaeologists only
Message 1 of 52
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Not a clue squire, I thought you might be able to answer that. I always held you up as the old Sage of the RT. I'm just adding my personal satirical slant on the thread. But I eagerly await your input.

 

No need to Kudo, I'm acutely embarrassed now.

Message 21 of 52
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Oh well - no doubt someone will be able to explain - over to CD 🙂

 

So I have shares in a company based in the Bahamas and one based in New York and one in Ireland.

 

I pay tax on the dividends received and when I sell them I pay any capital gains tax due - what's the difference between each of the companies or maybe there isn't any.

 

What if I have savings - is there any difference between buying units in a fund based in those locations and if I did am I doing something I shouldn't?

Message 22 of 52
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As far as I'm aware and understand the situation, a company supposedly based in a "Tax Haven" might buy/sell/make a lotta profit by doing so in the UK but because their HQ is supposedly in the tax haven, they don't pay tax here, they pay at the rate set in tax haven which is usually very low compared to the UK.

 

The tax havens are usually "poorer" countries which try to attract companies to "base" themselves there so the tax haven earns some tax which it otherwise wouldn't have done if they hadn't "attracted" companies by charging such a low rate of tax.

 

For a company, its far cheaper doing all that than paying UK corporation tax. The shareholders also benefit because their "earnings" were "earned" in the tax haven where the rate is low.

 

Now DC sold his shares in Blairholdings but because he "earned" that profit in the UK, he paid UK tax on it.



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

Message 23 of 52
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Of course, the irony is that we are all at it; at least all those who pay money in to a pension fund. According to information, readily obtained, most pension funds invest the money in exactly the same sort of places.......to ( as it was put ) mitigate their tax liability.......and ( no doubt ) to get the best return / result for their investors.........that's you and me.Smiley Very Happy

Message 24 of 52
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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

Oh well - no doubt someone will be able to explain - over to CD 🙂

 


And as if by magic. Smiley LOL

Message 25 of 52
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If that's the case then because the company made more profit after tax than they would have, had they been based in the US, it is good that UK tax payers invest in them because when they get their dividends or sell their shares/units they pay UK tax - tax the exchequer wouldn't otherwise receive.

 

Blairmore Holdings is, I understand, based in Ireland - if David Cameron still owned the units he previously owned would it be right to criticise him for doing so?  Of course revenue for the Exchequer would be lower because the company will be paying tax in Ireland before dividends are paid.

 

What it all seems to boil down to is where the tax eventually gets paid not whether or not tax is actually paid - unless of course the income is hidden but that would be tax evasion not avoidance.  The other problem I can see is regarding money laundering - low regulation must help in illegitimate funds being injected into companies. 

Message 26 of 52
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How many of us have asked a tradesman for a quote, builder, decorator, plumber etc and when asked do you want to pay cash and in the process avoid VAT have we said oh no I insist on paying tax otherwise it would be illegal. 😄
Message 27 of 52
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They use two companies, a parent company and a holding company.

 

The "rules" are all clouded in gobbledygook, if you really need to know how to do things, get your accountant to do it. If anything "goes wrong" and the tax man pounces on you, blame your accountant!  grin



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

Message 28 of 52
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Most people don't understand and that is a huge part of the problem.

 

What we don't understand, we cannot be sure we're being told the truth about.  But it's not about the legality or otherwise of these financial arrangements but the deception and two-facedness of it all.

 

We are now told by "mea culpa" dave that he is to blame for not handling it properly because he was angry about how his dad was criticised. 

 

Really?

 

I just don't believe it because the "truth" we are now expected to believe was such as simple matter to come out with at the very beginning.  Now he's using his dead father's memory to ramp up the emotion to turn it into "poor dave"

 

BUT - there are still unanswered questions about the activities of his father's financial activities and the answers that have been given about dave's situation have been very carefully worded, which just fuels suspicion that there is more to this that is kept hidden.

 

So, is this man stupid that he cannot work out how to give a clear and concise and honest answer from the beginning or at least with his second shot and within 24 hours? If so, he's not fit to be PM.  If he isn't stupid, then there is something still not right about the revelations.

 

Given his previous very personal attacks on others in the public eye who had the same or similar legitimate arrangements, it is also extremely hypocritical.  If his affairs are private, then so are everyone elses!

 

At least one of his close supporters have said that "of course" it would have been very difficult for him to upset/offend his father by selling the shares whilst he was still alive.

 

Really?  He sold them fast enough 8 months before his father died when there was a chance he might make PM, but why not shift them sooner if he truly felt it was wrong to make money that way?

 

How long was he benefitting from his father's company avoiding paying UK tax before he found it prudent to ditch the shares which could be traced?

 

He may have paid tax in the uk when he sold those shares, but for how long was he receiving an income and did he pay full tax on that, and did that income arise from a scheme set up to avoid paying tax anyway from which he benefitted in terms of earnings?

 

But what about his statement about the properties he owns - not just that he couldn't rememer (really?) but that he manages to pick and choose what he owns versus what he chooses to say the family benefits from. And how much money came from those overseas investments to help fund the house purchases?

 

It is not that there is necessarily anything wrong, it's that the more one finds out, the more things just don't add up.

 

Why did he intervene to block the EU bid to require the beneficiaries of trusts to be named?

 

Whilst these offshore funds and arrangements may be legal (and many individual people are caught up in this mess of a 'revelation' because they've taken advice from respectable - or otherwise - professionals) when it comes to people who make their money from tax avoidance and build up huge wealth as a result, it is quite clear that they have a huge immoral advantage over the vast majority of 'ordinary' people who have no choice but to pay their full taxes.

 

Are we "all in this together"?  Well, we all knew we never were, but now we are understanding more of just how much most of us were very much on our own and left struggling.

 

But the questions still remain and the answers do not cover them.

 

Back in 2012 dave said he would publish his tax returns - they remain unpublised, not of course that this would reveal anything that was squirreled away or was waiing in the wings for him to inherit from his mother who may still be benefitting from the tax avoiding arrangements set up by his father.

 

That is her business to which she is entitled to keep private, but it's not good enough for dave to hide behind that if he stands to benefit (or has already in the past benefitted by the shifting of funds), attack others who have benefitted from the same legitimate schemes, block bids for total transparency and then complain when he fuels the fires that give him a headache!

 

Other MPs and former MPs have published not just their tax returns, but other financial dealings, gifts received etc so that everyone knows where they stand.

 

He's a public servant, the interest on his mortgage of his Oxfordshire home is paid for by the public purse as well as his salary and it's long overdue that the only thing which is blocked is the ability of public servants to hide their financial affairs.

 

And all of this has come at a time when people have been totally misled over the issue of the rise in earnings from the new National Living wage, which has left many worse off than before when Lord alone knows they were struggling enough to cope with daily living before, never mind finding any extra to put into UK savings.

 

It's his "don't do as I do, do as I say and make sure you do or esle" attitude which he is being attacked for, his arrogance, his assumption that he can attack anyone to serve his own pompous ends, his insistance that he is above scrutiny and doesn't have to answer to anyone that has caused him his headache.

 

So that is what is so 'wrong' with it all.  Not whether it is or was legitimate, but how much tax was avoided, which includes Inheritance tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, and again, all at a time when we are learning just how many loopholes big businesses can 'legitimately' exploit to avoid paying full taxes which affects all of us, but not all of us equally.

 

There is nothing 'wrong' with being weathy by legitimate means or hard work and having choices for one's lifestyle;  there is everything wrong with living a life of struggle no matter how hard one works and pays taxes with no choices but to keep struggling.

 

 

 


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My body is an old warehouse full of declining storage, my mind is a dusty old reference library, strictly for members and archaeologists only
Message 29 of 52
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The only reason people have accounts and fake companies in tax havens is to avoid tax and legal oversight,why would they go to all that trouble?  

 

you have to have some sympathy with Cameron, you leave money lying around in unusual places, then you forget about it....just the other week i found 50p in my washing machine filter..





We are many,They are few
Message 30 of 52
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@joe_bloggs* wrote:

you have to have some sympathy with Cameron, you leave money lying around in unusual places, then you forget about it....just the other week i found 50p in my washing machine filter..


I think that falls under the heading of "don't shout or they'll all want one".


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My body is an old warehouse full of declining storage, my mind is a dusty old reference library, strictly for members and archaeologists only
Message 31 of 52
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Excellent post, aernethril. Maybe if Dave the Rave had addmitted it in the first place instead of his silly smokescreen, he wouldn't now be pilloried...as fallen_archie mentioned back yonder. *jerks thumb*

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36004856

Message 32 of 52
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Snatches a 'd' back from 'admitted', before the pedants swoop. Smiley Happy

Message 33 of 52
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But why the smokescreens in the first place?  The automatic reaction was to conceal, to assume he could just shove his weight around and get his own way.

 

But even using his friends to give their reasons why dave was reluctant to discuss anything or had forgotten to mention his previous holdings goes pear shaped when you look at the facts and then what he comes out with later to try and save his bacon! 

 

It just keeps posing more questions that leave a nastier smell.

 

the-cameron-network-inherited-wealth-and-family-companies


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My body is an old warehouse full of declining storage, my mind is a dusty old reference library, strictly for members and archaeologists only
Message 34 of 52
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Well, it gets worse

 

More revelations - more seeping out in ways to try and get under the radar.

 

independent

 

There's so much that is wrong in that article but here's one bit

 

Mr Cameron also told ITV News it was a “fundamental misconception” that Blairmore Holdings was established to avoid tax.  The fund was created – entirely legally – in 1982.

 

What misconception would that be then?  There is no issue with it being legal but he's twisted that bit in to divert attention from the issue of: ".... Mr Cameron was directly asked to “clarify for the record that you and your family have not derived any benefit in the past and will not in the future from the offshore Blairmore Holdings fund."

 

And now suddenly there are more shares in the equation:  "I sold those shares. In fact, I sold all the shares that I owned, on becoming Prime Minister.”

 

More shares?

 

Again, nothing wrong with owning shares or selling them at all, but everything wrong with the information coming out in dribs and drabs, when he's under pressure and isn't in control of what he's saying - it's called seepage and continues to ramp up the speculation that there is yet more which is being kept hidden.

 

Now we're being promised the publication of the tax returns - soon - as they were promised in 2012 - but now presented as if he's a knight in shining armour, a king of prime ministers.  Why not publish them tomorrow, or do they need a bit of cleaning up after they've been hidden for so long?

 

And now there is apparently a gift of £200k from his mother as well as the £300k from his father's will.  Again, nothing wrong with being left an inheritance but morally very wrong IF that inheritance is funded from holdings set up in other countries where they cannot be scrutinised for tax avoidance, and even more so, when the beneficiary has been so hypocritical and scathing about others making use of the same 'legitimate' financial arrangements.

 

What I'm wondering is when the focus will shift to the shenanigans of George's financial arrangements and what he profits from, and even better given his statement that people who profit from tax evasion should be treated as criminals - yep - with Dave standing right next to him.

 

And we are asked to respect just how much the rich and high earners have been required to pay out on 'our' behalf to help the economy which doesn't even cause them to break sweat, doesn't require them to go without luxuries, never mind bare essentials.

 

An absolute arrogant shower, the lot of them.

 

 

I relistened to the Today programme and was reminded by this comment from Kitty Ussher when she said that he was trying to draw a line under it by giving something but it doesn't solve his problem because his financial situation doesn't pass the smell test - something wrong with the whole situation and goes on to explain one reason he may have got rid of the shares was because he didn't want to declare them under the Ministerial Declaration of Financial Interest which is far tougher than the MPs' register.

 

She also raises the issue of if it was all above board, why didn't he say it in the first place or why get rid of the shares in the first place - the political smell test.

 

"He sought to put his own financial situation ahead of what he thinks is right.as Prime Minister"

 

Today

 

Starts at around 01:54 almost at the end of the programme.

 


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My body is an old warehouse full of declining storage, my mind is a dusty old reference library, strictly for members and archaeologists only
Message 35 of 52
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Just in case His next excuse is that they got bad Investment advice

 

Remember the Camerons are a Banking/Stockbroking Family,

 

A Family who incidently, for over 200 years, had lots of dealings through Hong Kong with the Chinese

( Is that why He is soooo friendly with the them as Prime Minister ? )

 

 

 

 

Message 36 of 52
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So who would you choose to look after your money? A lottery winner who lives the life of Riley only to end up on benefits, Perhaps a diverse cultural group who could invest it wisely on drop in centres and places of worship, The SNP or Jeremy Corbyn, nationalise land, bring all property into public ownership and have a minimum and maximum wage and of course we will all ride bikes😀

Despite everything that I have read so far I am still at a loss to see what crime has been committed here. If this is about politics and individual wealth creation and protection then surely it applies to many many more individuals and is as can be demonstrated by the proliferation of leftist players in these papers, more about human nature than a desire to undertake a criminal act. It could also be argued that we are better off with a prudent politician than a clueless *bleep* many of whom do end up as MPs. What I am certain of is that someone will find a way to link this to the Europe debate moving more people away from the facts.

Message 37 of 52
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It's not about politics, the only thing it is about is jealousy about those who have, the have-nots would do all sorts of things if they were "have's"...... Oh yeah, like heck they would.

 

The bigots have had a field day about DC, if he lifted a finger to pick up a pen, the bigots would find fault with the way he did it. If DC did anything wrong, it was responding to the jealous bigots in the first place! Bad strategy. What he should have done was to let them speculate for a while, then slay them with the facts!



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

Message 38 of 52
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@fallen-archie wrote:
How many of us have asked a tradesman for a quote, builder, decorator, plumber etc and when asked do you want to pay cash and in the process avoid VAT have we said oh no I insist on paying tax otherwise it would be illegal. 😄

It wouldnt just be Vat Archie, it would also unlikely be declared by the tradesman thus doing the taxman out of paye.

 

Of course er none of us would ever do anything like that in getting a cheaper price would we. From builder, takeaways window cleaners, if the taxman got what he was due austerity measures would hardly be needed.

 

If DC has not broken any rules or broken any regulations then i cant see what all the fuss is about, and listening to Corbain at this time in the morning what a drivelling creep.

 

apart from pointing out that we already know, the tax system is long due and overall, and these legal loopholes need closed, but soon as you close one there is another around the corner. Trouble is press to hard and they will do a sean connery and simply live overseas, where the goverment will end up worse off.

 

Unfortunately its something thats always going on, what do people want - a communist regime, -of course they are so very poor at the top and putin wouldnt do anything like that- oops.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Message 39 of 52
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But I don't think anyone is saying he's committed any crime because he hasn't.

 

That is and never was the issue.

 

It is about his abuse of others who have done exactly the same as he did by ridiculing them and using the pointy finger to say how bad they are for avoiding taxes.

 

It's about his arrogance in the way he belittles others and then we find out that he has been in receipt of some very nice hand-outs - all legit - but nevertheless, he can afford his own ruddy suits, as just one example!

 

Where is his absolutely transparent list of all gifts he has received, tangible and intangible?

 

And it's about his determination to block anyone finding out about his financial dealings which are shady - they are still shady and if he wants to take the moral high ground, he needs to be honest and he isn't.

 

He assumes too much privilege and that makes him untrustworthy, and that means we cannot trust him when he comes up with other 'facts and figures', such as the latest stunt in trying to 'prove' we must stay in Europe!

 

He said he would publish his tax returns - he has not!

 

What he has done is to publish a very carefully worded document that details his known earnings but it does not show the tax requirement, nor what he has actually paid or managed to defer, and neither does it show dormant assets that could be revised after he leaves office.

 

This is almost certainly legit, but if there is nothing wrong, why keep hiding it?

 

And it is incomplete in so many other ways - and that is not transparency - that is a deliberate ploy to mislead.

 

Just because he hasn't committed a crime doesn't mean he hasn't done anything wrong either and that we cannot criticise his performance or challenge his claims when clearly they are not transparent as promised and not verifiable.

 

 

And no Cee Dee, it's not about his wealth or jealousy at all either but it is about finding out just how rich somone is who is consistently punishing those at the bottom of the earnings scale and requiring them to go without more and more.  I think it's entirely understandable that people who find they are living on less and less every year feel a degree of disgust at someone who has so much wealth within a family they can manipulate their income to legally avoid taxes to the max.

 

In the great scheme of things, he probably isn't as rich as many of his cronies and associates and certainly is hardly likely to come anywhere near those in receipt of salaries that make them millionaires within a couple of months.

 

But it's his own behaviour in the past and now which is causing the furore and it's his own constant bleating about how angry he was at the attack on his father etc etc.

 

It's all excuses - I've gone over the timings and the reports and this was the reaction of someone who was suddenly facing having his own affairs looked into more closely and he presumed to use his PM muscle to try and slap down the low-life who dared to ask questions - and this time it didn't work.

 

 

And for the record, I actually have mixed feelings about what anyone is forced to declare publicly, no matter who they are.  But equally we now live in times where it's too easy to move serious money around for illegal or even worse reasons and there is a need for greater scrutiny, closing of loopholes and an acceptance that conduct and rules have to change to create a fairer, safer and more balanced society

 

I feel strongly that the whole tax system needs an overhaul but not at the expense of those who have no choice but to pay all their taxes being left worse off.

 

I simply cannot keep using my sleeve to wipe my eyes at the thought of all those very wealthy and assuredly wealthy people having to pay more tax when they are pushing to relieve pensioners of much needed help, having overseen years of financial mismanagement which has reduced the value of savings and pensions.

 

AND - if we want to get tough on benefit fraud, tax avoidance in paying cash under the carpet and cooking the books, then there can be no moral or ethical grounds to do so whilst priviledged people in power and companies are using every means at their very easily come-by disposal to avoid paying billions in tax, and financial dealings are held in secret.

 

There is a fine line between the two sets of behaviour but it all comes down to honesty and if those at the top cannot be open and honest, if companies and financial institutions are allowed to get away with criminal or borderline dishonest conduct with those at the top avoiding prosection, then we cannot be suprised that we have such a dishonest, grab-what-you-can under-belly of society.

 

 

 


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Message 40 of 52
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