Open Borders.

[cee-dee]

So, they wanted open borders, they've got open borders and what's happened?

Cowardly people are able to travel unhindered all over Europe carrying ammunition, guns and explosives with the sole intent of murdering people who've done no-one any harm.

One of the main obstacles to the same thing happening here more often is the Channel and although there's reasonably high security, in the face of such desparate criminals, it's still not enough.

Those cowardly people would never try to face off to those equally armed, no, they, like all bullying cowards pick on people unable to fight back.

Sooooo, what do you think we should do about it?

[evoman3957]

I can't understand this mentality, that says locking doors is not the answer.  If you lived in the country and left your door wide open, would you really be surprised if you got home; to find some animal had defecated in the middle of your lounge Carpet.  If you lived in the City and did the same, it would be your TV or Stereo that had gone missing.  When you want people to come in, you open the door and say " Come In ". When you don't want them to come in, you lift up the letter box and tell them to go forth and multiply. Jesus Christ !!! how can ANYBODY make such a simple procedure so ridiculously complicated.

[artful_dodgings]

astrologica wrote:

😀😀......totally agree! I remember saying to my OH when the tunnel was built, that we would profoundly regret building and opening the tunnel one day. Just imagine if a suicide bomber did his work on a Eurostar train, underneath the English Channel.....it doesn't bear thinking about. Anyone who travels by Chunnel in this present climate must be stark raving mad.

---

And at a cost of cost £4.65 billion (equivalent to £12 billion today), 80 per cent more than was first anticipated, and all to reach the continent in 20 minutes. The end certainly doesn't justify the means.

For anyone thinking that the government is capable of keeping out undesirables, might I refer them to your post at No.12. A litany of failures, ineptitude, and sheer incompetence.

[fallen-archie]

It was during the Napoleonic Wars that the term Repel all Boarders was likely introduced, and here we are still stuck in that era.

[cee-dee]

Please explain how this dark web works?

How does this dark web manage to smuggle people, guns, ammunition and explosives in to the UK after having been made and sourced....... where?

Making ammunition in such quantities as it can be fired on full auto almost willy-nilly isn't a DIY project. Just making the (brass?) cartrige case requires many operations before you even think about fitting a primer let alone the powder and the bullet.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@evoman3957 wrote:

I can't understand this mentality, that says locking doors is not the answer.  If you lived in the country and left your door wide open, would you really be surprised if you got home; to find some animal had defecated in the middle of your lounge Carpet.  If you lived in the City and did the same, it would be your TV or Stereo that had gone missing.  When you want people to come in, you open the door and say " Come In ". When you don't want them to come in, you lift up the letter box and tell them to go forth and multiply. Jesus Christ !!! how can ANYBODY make such a simple procedure so ridiculously complicated.

---

Referring to your analogy I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of burglaries take place in properties with locked doors.

[cee-dee]

How many are foiled by locked doors?

[upthecreekyetagain]

His organisation estimates that almost 1.1 million firearms are currently in Bosnia, both legally and illegal held. Of those almost 750,000 are held illegally, meaning that there is one illegal firearm for every five citizens. And within the armed forces, the estimated surplus has been assessed at 99,882 weapons and 22,500 tons of ammunition.

  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11351855/How-did-the-Paris-terrorists-get-ho...

[upthecreekyetagain]

I wouldn't deny that locked doors deter some burglars - I wouldn't deny that border checks deter some undesirables.

The key word though is 'some' - how many who knows - all we do know is that neither are effective in a great number of cases and taken to excess cause more problems than they prevent.

[mikes*corvettes]

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

I wouldn't deny that locked doors deter some burglars - I wouldn't deny that border checks deter some undesirables.

The key word though is 'some' - how many who knows - all we do know is that neither are effective in a great number of cases and taken to excess cause more problems than they prevent.

---

Even if we manage to lock just one door and just keep one undesirable out which in turn saves just one innocent life is it not worth it ?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Depends at what cost - if it means a reduction in freedoms which are at the core of Western democracies, if it encourages terrorists to carry out even more attacks, then no - it's not worth it.

The 'if it saves just one life' argument is used under all sorts of circumstances and yet is in many cases judged not worth the cost.  Fitting limiters on all vehicles to a maximum of 25mph would save lives but most would agree that doing so is not worth the cost for all sorts of reasons.

[mikes*corvettes]

I get it now, so if more innocent people should die from the actions of these undesirables it's just collateral damage, there's no point in playing by the rules when the enemy doesn't.

I wonder how most of us would feel if any of our loved ones ended up in the same position as those who died recently in Paris or Brussels, I'm sure we would take great solace in knowing that we obeyed the rules of Western Democracy.

[evoman3957]

I just LOVE People.........have you noticed that when they put a price on Life, other people's are ALWAYS cheaper !!

[upthecreekyetagain]

If I had lost a loved one in the Brussel's bombing I wouldn't take any solace in knowing that they had died because the freedoms of the majority had taken precedence over the safety of individuals - if indeed that were the case.

As Evo rightly says when people put a price on lives it's always other people's lives that are cheaper.

That's the way of the world, always has been, always will be - from the cost of certain NHS treatments to the speed of motor vehicles to the risks we ask our armed forces to take - the lives of individuals are weighed against the common good and the cost to the majority.

[mikes*corvettes]

" the freedoms of the majority had taken precedence over the safety of individuals".

Please explain this...Because the way I see it is if the undesirables were stopped from coming in, then the freedom of the majority would not be infringed and life would carry on as normal also there would be no need to sacrifice  "Individuals".

[upthecreekyetagain]

The only way that 'undesirables' could be identified would be by increased checks in all walks of life, from travel to housing to employment to banking and so on.  It would be no good simply relying on border checks because not only are there many ways to avoid these but in practical terms thorough checks of every individual would make cross border travel impossible in the numbers we are used to.

The introduction of ID cards, DNA databases, email and telephone intercepts etc.  All proposals suggested that are the opposite to the British way. 

There is no way that life would be 'normal' as you suggest.  As the article I linked to earlier by Simon Jenkins describes far better than I can how such changes are handing the terrorists a victory.

"I measure my success in column inches and television hours, in ballooning security budgets, butchered liberties, amended laws and – my ultimate goal – Muslims persecuted and recruited to our cause. I deal not in actions but in reactions. I am a manipulator of politics. I work through the idiocies of my supposed enemies."

[evoman3957]

" FREEDOM IS ANOTHER WORD FOR NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE "

[fallen-archie]

We are a bunch of hypocrites, The UK has colonised virtually every corner of the globe at some stage in it's history yet when the going gets tough for others we deny them the ability or opportunity to escape. We are witnessing one of the worst displacement of people ever seen, it requires countries to work together to find solutions but we remain hostage to a bunch of fanatics who are running circles around us while we practice the worst kind of nimbyism. I am passionate about the need for the population of this small Island to be controlled in order that our services and way of life can be preserved but I am also a realist and believe that sometimes we need to show compassion and more importantly skill to help those who are either subject to persecution, starvation, religious fanaticism, lack of drinking water etc. We should also stand firm against those who use these situations for personal gain, the people traffickers, those who openly buy Oil from isis, the gun runners, the hate preachers.

Simply seeing this as the fault of the EU or the government of the day is ridiculous, Shengen gave freedom of movement to EU citizens, many came from the poor east to work here in jobs we were unwilling to fill, they generally work hard and do contribute to the economy, others have arrived from places like Somalia who do not share a common work ethic and who openly use our welfare system for their own limited means. The whole process requires careful management and that is not what we do. While we argue among ourselves the matter gets worse for all and the only winners are the corrupt. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Quite - when you are no longer afraid you are free. 

It it is fear that restricts freedom - it is fear that the terrorists are trying to instil in the populace and from the tone of some of the replies on this thread they are succeeding.  Personally I refuse to succumb to that fear. 

[cee-dee]

One question seems to be overlooked in all this talk about the troubles in various parts of the World and that is that in all those countries just who it is that's causing the trouble there? It's their own kind of people killing their own not some foreign invader hell-bent on taking over the country.

Sure, this country colonised many parts of the World and more or less did as they liked to the people already there but some countries were actually better off as a colony particularly when the people adopted "our" way of life. OK, so some people didn't like it and eventually rose up and took over then going back to "their" way of life up to a point. Best example is Southern Rhodesia I think?

India is "part British" in their way of life and the other part is, well, pretty tribal?

I met a young chap very smartly dressed, spoke impeccable English and had an excellent vocabulary. He was a young doctor! He was obviously of "foreign" origin so I asked him where he was from. Somalia! I asked him if he preferred our Western way of life or that of Somalia. He preferred our way of life. I asked him how long he'd been here. 11years, so I asked him if he'd like to go back. The immediate answer was "NO". The only thing he'd prefer to be different was....... the weather, although he was grateful for the rain, he said "you can have too much of a good thing".

The current situation around the World is reminiscent of the Wild West when unscrupulous people sold firewater and guns to the Indians.

[fallen-archie]

The current situation around the World is reminiscent of the Wild West when unscrupulous people sold firewater and guns to the Indians.

Precisely, and let us not forget another well known Somalian Mr Mo Farrah, problem is they are the exceptions rather than the rule. Your points are well made and draw things closer to reality than those who quote simplistic reasons for this complex problem. Those who embrace our culture are one thing whereas those who choose to continue a previous way of life simply create Ghettos and divisions in society which are near impossible to bridge.