Open Borders.

[cee-dee]

So, they wanted open borders, they've got open borders and what's happened?

Cowardly people are able to travel unhindered all over Europe carrying ammunition, guns and explosives with the sole intent of murdering people who've done no-one any harm.

One of the main obstacles to the same thing happening here more often is the Channel and although there's reasonably high security, in the face of such desparate criminals, it's still not enough.

Those cowardly people would never try to face off to those equally armed, no, they, like all bullying cowards pick on people unable to fight back.

Sooooo, what do you think we should do about it?

[joe_bloggs*]

Nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room-cuts to the border force

An investigation has found cuts to the workforce – which will be slashed by 5,200 to just 18,000 by March 2015 – have left alarming gaps in frontier protection.

Public & Commercial Services Union spokesman Richard Simcox said: “Staff are really concerned about the security of the border, but they can’t do anything about it.

“It’s down to staffing. There just aren’t enough staff to do a proper job after all the cuts.”

Mr Simcox added: “The political priority is for 100% of people coming into the country to have their passports checked.

“Border staff are being moved from customs checks to passport checks because there aren’t enough staff to do both. As a result customs checks are falling by the wayside and vehicles and luggage are not being searched.

"This means more drugs, weapons, ­counterfeit goods and illegal immigrants are getting into the country.

“If the Government wants to have those political priorities it’s got to make sure it has the people in place to do it.”

A whistleblower, employed at an immigration centre in north-west England admitted: “Staff cuts have undermined the whole system.

But not to worry,we'll renew trident,that should deter them 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drug-seizures-british-ports-plummet-4808059

[fallen-archie]

Trident is a different issue and far from certain, if Corbyn has his way we will scrap the deterent prefering instead to issue every home with a free mop which will allow you to defend yourself without harming an attacker.

[joe_bloggs*]

All well and good but when 98% of border staff are warning they don't have the resources to protect the border something must be done,probobaly sack all border staff and engage G4S,what could go wrong?

[start-the-fire]

Probably more staff moaning because they have to do near a full days work.

Every day you hear wingeing  for this and that, put them in the real world where they have to spend their own money to operate and they will likely be as useless as our local council, want to hear stories on pure waste and you need to look no further, add in the environmental agency and you could safe millions a year.

[evoman3957]

There's probably a little more to your comment than you realize.  Once again........from the horses mouth........when illegal immigrants are detected ( over the other side....ie. Calais ) and a search team is called in, from the border force, if it's an English team; they moan and groan about having to do something and it's difficult to prise them out of the Tea Room.  The French, however, are much more keen to work and are out searching the Trucks / Lorries in double quick time. The history of British workers, is littered with examples of them cutting their own throats with their idleness and P taking..........the " PRINT " industry being another perfect example.

As for my radical cures, I don't expect most have the Stomach, or willpower, to let them see the light of day.

i.e.    If a judge released a convicted Murderer early ( whether on appeal, or any other legally expedient reason ) and He / She went on to murder AGAIN.........I'd execute the Judge AND the Murderer.  Executing the Murderer, ensures they won't Murder somebody else in the future........but to leave the Judge, with His / Her abysmal ideas on what's right or wrong, is to ensure THEY TOO make the same mistake again and cost yet ANOTHER innocent person their life.

This ethos stretches way beyond this example, if you are not part of the solution; then you ARE part of the problem........and when you get rid of a problem........you get rid of ALL of it.

[joe_bloggs*]

"There's probably a little more to your comment than you realize.  Once again........from the horses mouth........when illegal immigrants are detected ( over the other side....ie. Calais ) and a search team is called in, from the border force, if it's an English team; they moan and groan about having to do something and it's difficult to prise them out of the Tea Room.  The French, however, are much more keen to work and are out searching the Trucks / Lorries in double quick time. The history of British workers, is littered with examples of them cutting their own throats with their idleness and P taking........."

Hope your family & friends in the border force don't read this 

[evoman3957]

I know, but what can I say.........the truth is the truth, as unpalatable as it may be; some people prefer to be lied to, because it gives them the answers they always hoped for..............ME.......I couldn't handle living a lie.....it's like an itch you can never scratch.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I'd like to know who are behind these terrorists - we may have identified the 'foot soldiers' but who is organising them?  They won't have entered the country, nor entered Europe, as illegal immigrants and no doubt as soon as an attack has occurred will have left the area.

There has to be an organisation that coordinated the recent attacks but we hear nothing about them.

As for the idea of 'closing' borders nobody has offered a reasonable method of keeping out potential terrorists who enter the country as tourists, business travellers or students.  How is it physically possible to thoroughly vet each traveller without making our airports and seaports grind to a halt?

The really dangerous individuals aren't going to enter the country hidden in the back of a lorry, far more likely to be wearing a suit and travelling business class.

[mikes*corvettes]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

The really dangerous individuals aren't going to enter the country hidden in the back of a lorry, far more likely to be wearing a suit and travelling business class.

---

Without soldiers on the ground these Generals would be toothless and not so dangerous.

[upthecreekyetagain]

As was shown in Belgium, the foot soldiers can be recruited locally and it doesn't matter if some get caught entering the country there are plenty more to take their place.

Think of the organisation behind the drugs trade - it may be the dealer in the club that does the direct damage but it is those behind the scenes that control the trade.

[start-the-fire]

Open our borders anymore and you can guarantee that there would be more atrocities in the UK.

They must be itching to cause havok in the uk and the usa.

Fortunately our border controls are better than the continent, as well as gun control it looks like the uk is ahead in the intelligence game,

Of course you cannot hope to stop everything and every other wanting to commit atrocity's, but control is still far to lax in my few.

watched a programme on  immigration the other day, a man who looked like he was in his late 20s was interviewed but claimed he was 15. Because of the laws we have here and until they could proof otherwise he was put with social services- where is he now, no one knows because he fled at the first opportunity.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@start-the-fire wrote:

Open our borders anymore and you can guarantee that there would be more atrocities in the UK.

They must be itching to cause havok in the uk and the usa.

Fortunately our border controls are better than the continent, as well as gun control it looks like the uk is ahead in the intelligence game,

Of course you cannot hope to stop everything and every other wanting to commit atrocity's, but control is still far to lax in my few.

watched a programme on  immigration the other day, a man who looked like he was in his late 20s was interviewed but claimed he was 15. Because of the laws we have here and until they could proof otherwise he was put with social services- where is he now, no one knows because he fled at the first opportunity.

---

What do you base that on?

All the 7/7 bombers were British

The killers of Lee Rigby were British

Pavlo Lapshyn who bombed three mosques was Ukranian but entered the UK legally at the invitation of Coventry University.

The Glasgow Airport bombing was carried out by a British born Doctor and a PhD 'student' with a valid visa.

All the evidence regarding terrorist attacks seems to suggest that in most cases those actually carrying out the attacks are individuals legally in the country - as for those who do the recruiting we hear very little about.

[start-the-fire]

I base it on the Paris bombings where the main suspect traveled across 5 borders unchallenged and then back to Brussels. Maybe if the borders here were down it would have been London and not Paris

With the uk atrocities, Of course you can argue that these are home grown terrorists, but where did their mothers or fathers migrate from ? If the uk hadnt let them in the first place some of these murders would not have happened.

Of course im not saying that they shouldnt have been allowed in the first place, all im saying is we should not make it any easier for possible terrorists to enter the country in the first place.

Stopping those that are recruited in this country is another matter, thwarted much by some of the ludicrous human rights laws.

[fallen-archie]

Determined fanatical terrorists will use any means possible to spread their poison, We all should pause a moment and try to starve them of training and weaponry, demand that moderate Muslims stand firm against terror and to any person holding a British passport who is proven to be connected with Isis, they should face the rope for treason. Harsh it may be but in the west great efforts are being made to ensure that justice is fair, those who abuse it for their own ends should take the consequences. I defend the right of Muslims to worship who they wish, they too should and must defend the rights of non Muslims to freedom of religious expression. By putting up barriers all you do is play into the hands of terrorists.

[upthecreekyetagain]

We may not be in Shengen but if the guy you mention who travelled freely between Belgium and France arrived in Dover with a Belgium passport as a tourist, do you think he would have been refused entry, whether or not we were a member of the EU?

I don't see any connection between Human Rights and the recruitment of local individuals as terrorists.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that we should relax our border controls - all I am pointing out is that calls for them to be virtually closed are unlikely to decrease the risk of terrorist activities but will most certainly make it far more difficult for, and make this country less atrractive to, tourists,and business travellers as well as making imports and exports more expensive.

[evoman3957]

It basically comes back to Parenting, which has changed beyond recognition from my youth; even from bringing up my own children.  I always believed in General Patton's saying of " Walk softly and carry a big stick ".  Too much " Softly " or too much " Big Stick " and it doesn't work.  Added to that, the fact that today's world has desensitised people ( mainly the younger ones, because they're more impressionable ) and you realise that technological progress; goes hand in hand with social regression.

[start-the-fire]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

We may not be in Shengen but if the guy you mention who travelled freely between Belgium and France arrived in Dover with a Belgium passport as a tourist, do you think he would have been refused entry, whether or not we were a member of the EU?

I don't see any connection between Human Rights and the recruitment of local individuals as terrorists.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that we should relax our border controls - all I am pointing out is that calls for them to be virtually closed are unlikely to decrease the risk of terrorist activities but will most certainly make it far more difficult for, and make this country less atrractive to, tourists,and business travellers as well as making imports and exports more expensive.

---

The connection between human rights is as you have pointed ou,t the home grown terrorists are recruited and influenced such as where extremists are allowed to preach radical ideasbecause if stopped it infringes their human rights, google human rights and terrorists you will get my drift.

There is more likely he would have been picked up since  he was from syria, and came through greece, not sure on what passport if this was true. But two or three of them had travelled to syria in the past couple of years, there was intelligence on some of them being radicals, and also one had an arrest warrant out on them. There are many flags on them that may have been raised had there been border controls.

Im glad you are not suggesting they should be relaxed, but there are some who do.

[joe_bloggs*]

"The connection between human rights is as you have pointed ou,t the home grown terrorists are recruited and influenced such as where extremists are allowed to preach radical ideasbecause if stopped it infringes their human rights, google human rights and terrorists you will get my drift."

I would think extemists are more likely recruited online through closed discussion boards helpfully pointed out to them

Also preachers who espouse extreme ideas will be monitored by the security servcies who would balk at the idea of closing down such establishments as MI5 covertly recruit from such places,nothing to do with human rights it's the bigger picture at play

[start-the-fire]

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@joe_bloggs* wrote:

"

I would think extemists are more likely recruited online through closed discussion boards helpfully pointed out to them

Also preachers who espouse extreme ideas will be monitored by the security servcies who would balk at the idea of closing down such establishments as MI5 covertly recruit from such places,nothing to do with human rights it's the bigger picture at play

---

The are recruited in many ways, and i think m15 would have several ways to recruit candidates for counter terrorism.

Many will be influenced by all the reteric and  speech which they can speel due to human rights-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11381944/Human-Rights-Act-has-helped-28-t...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12102509/Extremist-groups-must-be-allowed-to-prea...

[astrologica]

Not strictly on topic, but very closely connected....I see that Mr Tony Blair has been making pronouncements again. He now thinks that we should be sending ground troops into Iraq and Syria. Unbelievable!! Has that man learned nothing from his previous huge mistakes? With the Chilcot report still unpublished, he probably thinks it is still OK to dispense his Messianic wisdom. Does he not realise that the minute ground troops arrive there, every male who is still in those countries would head for the Mediterranean and to Europe. Talk about adding fuel to the fire.....

Ok.....back to topic....