OK, in or out?

[cee-dee]

How about an RT poll?

No reasons, no argument, no debate just a straightforward IN or OUT.

Me? OUT.

[evoman3957]

I just can't seem to get over the sheer stupidity of the whole EU project and the naivety of those who doggedly stick to the belief it could ever work in the long term. We have this core of western democracy's, where the average wage is £400 to £600 per week and the people live in Houses / Flats that have hot and cold running water and guaranteed power supply 24 / 7. We then invite countries in, to join the group, where the average wage is £50 per week and a lot of them live in " Shacks " that have power supplied intermittently, or not at all,.................THEN we give them free movement to come here, claim benefits, or income support ( so they're guaranteed the minimum / living wage ) STILL ten times more than they were getting in their home countries.......................and we're SUPPRISED when they come..........live like they do at home and send the money back to their families.

If some of these so called intelligent people that run the EU, had half a brain cell...........they'd be dangerous......................and please, if some of these figures quoted aren't correct, to the nearest penny; I'm just making a point...........get my drift........don't swamp me with "Links" to show me the correct figures.

[upthecreekyetagain]

It worked OK when West and East Germany united - circumstances exactly as you described - the difference was the willingness of the West Germans to sacrifice their financial advantage in the short term for the long term benefit of all.

[evoman3957]

It took the 5th richest country in the world and the richest in europe ( even beating Russia ) to be able to do it though.

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/

[start-the-fire]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

It worked OK when West and East Germany united - circumstances exactly as you described - the difference was the willingness of the West Germans to sacrifice their financial advantage in the short term for the long term benefit of all.

---

Could it be to do with they were all Germans ? with the unification of its former territory, a bit different in my eyes.

And indeed there are still many differences between East And West Germany.

[jd.linklater]

The reunification of Germany cost an estimated 3 trillion euros with 2 trillion of that coming from West Germany and the remainder collectively from the rest of Europe. Things have undoubtedly improved for the former East Germans but there are still huge disparities in wages, pensions, infrastructure and living conditions generally. There is still a long way to go before there is any kind of equality across the country.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Of course there is a long way to go but there are few people who think Germany will ultimately be worse off for being a federal republic.  The biggest difference between the unification of Germany and a European Union is that it is a democratic government in Germany and an appointed one in Europe.

[evoman3957]

Which just goes to show why you can't make the comparison, you made, between my post and the reunification of Germany. The people voted for the government that did one.......Germany ( and therefore approved it by association ) , but is having the other imposed upon them ( against their wishes ) by an unelected body ( no different to a communist doctrine )...the EU.

[upthecreekyetagain]

What I was getting at is that I believe the EU as a federal union could work IF there were a democratically elected federal government.  After all it works in Germany, the US and Australia.

[evoman3957]

Nothing wrong with having dreams, sometimes it breaks up the depression of reality.

[fallen-archie]

I believe a delgation from the out campaign have gone on a fact finding mission to North Korea, They seem to be a good example of a wholly independent nation. 

[joe_bloggs*]

Don't bother,they're here..

[astrologica]

Doesn't it speak volumes that those migrants who are in Greece and being prevented from moving on to their 'chosen' destimation, can begin fires and throw stones and break down fences because they are not getting their own way...but none of them could fight for their own countries...wherever they came from.

[evoman3957]

Well one thing's for sure, those people get about as much say in their future; as we do in the EU. Still analogies abound, the more vitriolic and extreme ones normally perpetuated by minorities. I'm afraid the fact remains that entrepreneurs become rich and succeed, because their the ones that have the b**** to take a chance and try standing alone............the rest succeed; because they use them as their crutch. That's why the fair distribution of wealth, is a rallying cry of those that neither have the b**** or know how to succeed on their own. Of course there are abuses and that should be addressed, but without the entrepreneurs; the workers would be unemployed.............and you'd never be without workers........because they account for most of the people. So if you need a crutch in life, stay in the EU............if you have more confidence in yourself and your country than that, there's a much bigger World out there; with plenty of better opportunities in it...........go and get them !!

[cee-dee]

Well, everyone else is at it and the poll's been forgotten so I might as well join in and post this song, I've waited long enough and I've not seen anyone else posting it, soooooooooooo, here it is:-

[astrologica]

Our good old impartial (not!) BBC, when reporting on the migrant crisis, always manages to show women who are pregnant, or who have new born babies. It is heartbreaking. But the war in Syria has been going on for years....so why do the Syrian men keep giving their wives more and more children. I very much doubt that the women have any say in the matter. These poor children have been born into a life of poverty and uncertainty, and never living in Peace. I cannot believe for one minute that they do not know how to limit their families. They obviously do not believe in restraint of any sort. Another reason why we do not need any more immigration into this country.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Whether you approve or not of the circumstances in which these children were conceived the fact remains that they are in desperate need of assistance.

[astrologica]

I totally agree Creeky...they are in desperate need. My point is that we in this country do not need immigrants who treat women like this and have this way of life and these values. 

[evoman3957]

There are none so blind

As those that cannot see

To those I say, ask not for whom the Bell Tolls

For it tolls for thee

[upthecreekyetagain]

Interesting and apropos to the thread - here's the source of 'For whom the Bell Tolls - a poem by John Donne.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

[cee-dee]

The EU migrant situation is a bit like you having a huge, immaculate garden along with your well stocked vegatable plot all of which is desirable and inviting,  but a load of people turn up demanding that you let them in to enjoy your garden which is the fruits of all your hard work. When you won't let them in, they all start breaking down your fence and gate......

Sooner or later, those people will be removed and sent back to where they came from.......