Ken Livingstone.

[merehazle]

Well...as no one has started a thread on Ken Livingstone's comment. I thought I would. Well these 7/7 bombers killed 52 innocent people. These innocent people killed no one. Hundreds of thousands UK anti - war protesters took to the streets on the 16 Feb 2003. Blame the leaders, not innocent people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[fallen-archie]

There has always been an element within the Labour party stuck in the past and who interpret history in a bizarre idealistic way. Ken Liverbelly is such a person one of the original Trots now revelling in this Political Indian summer. In the process he and those like him, Corbyn, the hippies who make up stop the war coalition, Winnie Mandela abbott, the entire SNP bunch of opportunist thugs, All seeking their moment of power and fame. Each and every one see Isis not as a threat but as an opportunity to win more support by selling a lie. Interesting times, perhaps they will be successful mustering sufficient support to comfort the terrorists but one thing is for certain, whatever policy we pursue there will be many civilian casualties as long as these crude fanatics are allowed to indiscriminately blow us and themselves up. 

[joe_bloggs*]

Thats the trouble with Livingstone and to the same extent Corbyn they don't seem to value gestures such as a bit of blood spilling in Syria as a source of status,In the conventional view, that makes them a dangerous radicals.on the other side Cameron wishes to bomb Syria mailny for politiacal rather than military reasons,he has a fear of being left out,not being able to sit at the big boys table,Corbyn was proved right on Iraq and sadly might be proved correct again on Syria,the US have been bombing for over a year along with many other factions,the US jets have been returning to base without having even dropped one bomb,because as they stste there is not much left to bomb,there are no obvious ground isis formations,god knows what 2 or 3 UK warplanes can do,Its the old story "we have to be seen to be doing something" in the end when it all blows out of control and the red buttons have been pushed,Cameron will from the top bunk gaze into osbornes eyes and say: at least we had trident.....

[fallen-archie]

JB said,

Thats the trouble with Livingstone and to the same extent Corbyn they don't seem to value gestures such as a bit of blood spilling in Syria as a source of status,In the conventional view, that makes them a dangerous radicals.on the other side Cameron wishes to bomb Syria mailny for politiacal rather than military reasons.

Thats the trouble with those who don't seem to value gestures such as a bit of blood spilling in Paris or the sinai, I mean come on what right did all those russian tourists have to be spending their hard earned roubles in a Muslim country, What right did those revellers in the Bataclan club have to be enjoying themselves listening to an infidel rock band. Livingstone is right, we must put up with the punishment we deserve following the actions of Blair/Bush, these are not atrocities but allahs way of balancing the books, we the left wing trots know what Britain needs and being defenceless will mean we pose no threat to anyone and will be left alone. History Lies, Trots are the future.

[cee-dee]

Can anyone point out any conflict or war which was ended by "talking" before great loss of life?

[joe_bloggs*]

the real purpose of Obahma and looks soon to be Camerons bombing is the removal of Assad,nothing will stand in their way,Russia's bombing starts to affect stolen oil supplies entering Turkey,a Russian plane gets shot down and one of the pilots shot by the "moderates" on the ground,Camerons proposed air strikes are which any reasonabley inteligent person realises symbolic,designed to look well in the opinion polls.If we really wanted to stop isis we should block off their 2 way border entry into Turkey,and Dave could phone his Saudi pals and get them to block terrorist funding instead of sucking up to them,it would all end a lot sooner than now,funnily enough something tells me that isn't going to happen

this makes interesting reading,especially concerning our NATO "ally" Turkey

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/europe-is-harbouring-the-islamic-state-s-backers-d24db3a24a4...

[jd.linklater]

I watched Question Time and I was in total agreement with Ken Livingston's comments re. Bush and Blair.  It was the invasion of Iraq that has led to the current situation and I hold them both fully responsible for the state we find ourselves in today.

[fallen-archie]

Hard to disagree with you JD but Attricities pre date Bush/ Blair. Whether it is crimes against other nations or on their own people there are some geographical hot spots. If you go back 400 years the butchery of North African pirates was excessive even then. It's as if they have never fully evolved alongside others. We were no doubt to blame then as well but Conflict resolution requires each party to work at a solution, Somehow I feel we are willing but they remain opposed, They must take some responsibility for their actions imo.

[cee-dee]

The fault lies not in the actual "jobs" but the fact that they're never finished properly. They get started, partly done then ended before ensuring a lot or the resulting mess and aftermath is cleaned up properly.

In Iraq, due to outside "pressure", they couldn't wait to get out of there leaving the way open for loads of arms "dumps" to get looted by opportunistic criminals who then took over large areas mistreating civilians along the way.

The reason no-one wants to wade in with ground troops is that unlike in a "conventional war" where front lines are more or less defined and your enemy is "over there", in the current Middle East you have no idea whether the person (even children) in front of you is an innocent civilian, a soldier or a terrorist suicide bomber. Also, you have no way of knowing where all sorts of booby traps are waiting in the most innocent looking places.

[tommy.irene]

This has been posted on another earlier thread:on a fourm that i belong too.. Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East? We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS. We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like. We don’t like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him. We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS. So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are now our friends, and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose, but we don’t want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win. If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less. And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out. It's quite simple, really. Do you understand now?

[merehazle]

---

---

---

@tommy.irene wrote:
This has been posted on another earlier thread:on a fourm that i belong too.. Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East? We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS. We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like. We don’t like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him. We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS. So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are n

ow our friends, and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose, but wedon’t want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win. If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less. And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out. It's quite simple, really. Do you understand now?

---

  Hazle said give you a kudos for that.

If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in it's place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again. I don't know how near science is getting to proving who is right or wrong? But if science is right the mind boggles at the outcome? Food for thought.

Might it be a good thing if science is proved to be the winner?  Well that takes some thinking about too Tommy. 

[fallen-archie]

I see the activists have been out rambling around Downing street, I suppose it is a change of scenery for them. It is so wet at the moment camping cannot be much fun. They are well serviced by the creative team who make impressive placards (Special thanks to sponsors at the socialist workers party) Also in prominence are the famous stop the war coalition who have no problem with another activist bombing us but are determined that we should simply bow down and take the punishment. There was an absence of any reference to the shooting of peacekeepers in Mali, the plight of young women in Northern Nigeria or continuing Piracy around Somalia.

Nothing about the downed Tourist jet full of innocent tourists. All we get is the same old, same old. 

There has been a slight movement however, who could forget the inspired chanting in the 70s, many hours spent by activists firstly writing the music and then those inspirational lyrics, It went something like this:

Maggie Maggie Maggie-------------------------------------------------out out out

There was no social media or download chart then, Tony Blair was rewarded with the title Tony bLiar, but at the time he was very popular so something had to be done!

Today its the turn of David Cameron, yet more inspired thinking between young and old produced this touching tribute to the Prime Minister

Of course it is important to add that one of the prime movers of todays event is Lindsey German one time Socialist worker party, STWC founder, Lifelong Marxist activist and never on the receiving end of broad support, yet she and her cronies continue to do what they can to destabalise the Uk and to ignore the will of the people.

Coming to a fracking site near you soon.

[suzieseaside]

---

@fallen-archie wrote:

Of course it is important to add that one of the prime movers of todays event is Lindsey German one time Socialist worker party, STWC founder, Lifelong Marxist activist and never on the receiving end of broad support, yet she and her cronies continue to do what they can to destabalise the Uk and to ignore the will of the people.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps bombing Syria is not yet the will of the people.  Anyway, since when has any Government decision about bombing somewhere been carried out according 'to the will of the people'?

Just asking, like.

One latest poll says that the majority of British people do not support air strikes againt Syria.  That might change of course, and it was only one poll.  No doubt it would also change if we have a terrorist attack here in the near future.

But whatever the public want, they won't be asked, and polls or protests will make no difference to what the H of Commons decides to do.

[joe_bloggs*]

It looked like a good turn out,wished i could have attended,I wonder what the warmongers think of Stop the wars 7 point rebuttal to Camerons case for bombing Syria?

http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news/stop-the-war-s-7-point-rebuttal-of-david-cameron-s-case-for-war...

 

[evoman3957]

I just fail to see how having a leader who looks like "Compo" out of Last of The Summer Wine, can do a lot for a Party's image. He is "Earthy" though I'll give him that, he wouldn't look out of place; playing a Guitar in an underpass, somewhere in downtown hackney, with Dianne Abbott  his Dog sitting next to Him.

[fallen-archie]

I don't think a poll is required to say that the majority of Brits oppose bombing, myself included. What naffs me off are those who use a situation to further their own political ends, ignoring completely the plight of victims at home and playing firmly into the hands of those who oppose our way of life. The opposition they mount is to just about everything, there are no alternative policies, no quarter for those who hold a different point of view and I reckon a large proportion of the serial objectors live, one way or another, off the taxpayer. 

[joe_bloggs*]

---

@fallen-archie wrote:

I don't think a poll is required to say that the majority of Brits oppose bombing, myself included. What naffs me off are those who use a situation to further their own political ends, ignoring completely the plight of victims at home and playing firmly into the hands of those who oppose our way of life. The opposition they mount is to just about everything, there are no alternative policies, no quarter for those who hold a different point of view and I reckon a large proportion of the serial objectors live, one way or another, off the taxpayer. 

---

Plenty of alternative policies,googles a good start,and i,ll think you'll find its the tories ignoring victims at home and causing untold suffering to their own people,how much will the bombing cost? but theres no money for the disabled,etc.

Despite the disasters of Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, the blairites along with the tories, with the full support of the media behind them, find it absolutely unacceptable that anybody should refuse to support more bombing in the Middle East,and nobody appears to be able to answer a simple question-what will it achieve?

[fallen-archie]

As I said JB I don't want to see another bombing campaign, I have googled the alternatives but surely it should be the Politicians taking the lead. Action is required, action which does address the current aggressive stance taken by ISIS toward the infidels. We live in a country where guns are thankfully not carried by the public, we rely on our elected members to protect this lifestyle, we ought to stop party politics and seek a consensus. 

[joe_bloggs*]

agreed,one of the main objectives should be cutting off the terrorists funding,especially from Saudi and Turkey,you have to wonder why thats not being fully implemented?

[evoman3957]

Joe...........Imagine trying to build some kind of functioning State, with a functioning and usable infrastructure; while Bombs are raining down every minute ( practically ). The LAST thing ANYBODY needs to be doing, is giving ISIS time to regroup and co-ordinate their forces and activities. Now, of course, bombing isn't the ultimate answer, but until some "Whizz" comes up with that answer; at least we can make ISIS keep their heads down and disrupt them, as much as possible, by bombing them. It annoys me intensely, that Arabs have NEVER cleaned up their own mess and I spent years working in the middle east. Even then, 40 years ago, they were the same.........although supposedly of the same religion and with the same God, they still found enough to disagree about ;to want to kill each other. It needs a combined middle eastern Army, putting boots on the ground; to clean up this mess. Even if the West does it, by putting their Armies on the ground; in the end, what we do will NEVER be the right thing.  It will never be appreciated ,by those who couldn't or wouldn't do it themselves.