It's all Greek to me?

[cee-dee]

So Greece owes billions of €uro to several lenders, it didn't make it's June payment of €1.6 billion to the IMF and it now expects to be lent more money?

What have they done with all that money? Frittered it away on........ what? Where's it gone?

If you and I owed substantial sums to various lenders and didn't make repayments as agreed, what would the lenders say if we said we couldn't pay what we owe and asked to be lent more?

[0125arwen]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-1953-greece-2015-economic-marshall-plan-debt...

Greece's finance minister at London Conference of 1953 signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt

[malacandran]

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@0125arwen wrote:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-1953-greece-2015-economic-marshall-plan-debt...

Greece's finance minister at London Conference of 1953 signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt

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Good one!  But that was in 1953.

 And since then, the Germans have worked hard, and paid off their debts.

Whereas the Greeks keep coming back, asking for more money. Every year, they want more.  

Doesn't it seem obvious, that the Greeks don't want to work.  They want free money from Germany.

[joamur_gosof]

thats nonsense and not even true,the greeks more than most probably want nothing from the germans ,its all EU banks and federal reserve games..nothing to do with who wants what off who..When greek joined there was no ''hey the germans pay for everything clause...and in the same respect the germans joining didnt have clauses that would see them taking the brunt..which is also wrong.

Blame banks and pretending money grows out of thin air not assets....govs such as blair and thatcher world wide lending bonds ..the collateral is you me and all the kids....when that happened and making up money got out of control ...the whole of the union hit a brick wall ...we owed 1 . 9 trillion .to who for what and you will never pay it back...hence greeks problem....nothing whatsoever to do with who works harder.

[upthecreekyetagain]

And to make matters worse much of the 'money' lent to Greece by the ECB and the IMF never actually existed.  It was no more real than the money 'created' by the Bank of England to enable quantitative easing.

[malacandran]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

And to make matters worse much of the 'money' lent to Greece by the ECB and the IMF never actually existed.  It was no more real than the money 'created' by the Bank of England to enable quantitative easing.

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Yes Creeky - there you touch on a deep point - what is this "money" that seems to be in short supply?

I don't really understand it.

[joamur_gosof]

you are the money Malac..and everyone else in europe ,we have to pretend we dont know what really happend and work till 88 for the sake of it...hence it keeps you busy moving the nightshifts fridge contents back so the night shift has something to do .

Called social world engineering program to those in the know and it has replaced the fabricated lie that stuff in the floor belongs to and is worth something....well maybe on ebay but not really . Why .well because the people who own all the worlds largest assets have nothing else to offer the monkeys to elp wiv the pyromods.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I don't really understand it either - the whole basis of 'banking' seems to be based on the idea of trust.  In general banks lend out multiples of the amounts they have deposited with them by savers and make their profits by charging interest on money which they don't actually possess.

Currencies are no longer tied to a physical gold standard - when it was countries couldn't just print money without devaluing that already in circulation.

[jd.linklater]

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@******lynda****** wrote:
Greece should never have been allowed to join the EU and most ordinary people could see that they were not fulfilling the entry requirements. I think much of the debt is going to have to be written off, if Greece is ever to get on its feet. They need to leave the eurozone, because they cannot afford to be tied to the monetary policy.

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Would Greece leaving the EU be such a bad thing? Surely if they stopped using the Euro and reverted to the drachma, it would be drastically devalued with their economy in such a state. This would make everything in Greece really cheap, especially holidays which would encourage more tourists to visit, to stay for longer and spend more money perhaps even invest in second homes. I'm no economist but surely their economy would eventually recover, or am I missing something? 

[joe_bloggs*]

A lot of blame has to lie with previous governments as well as bankers like Goldman Sachs who did a bit of jiggery pokery with Greeces books,The previous Greek governments spent very heavily on defence buying the odd German tank along the way,very lax tax collection didn't help,the only solution is to wipe out the debts and allow Greece to slowly rebuild with their own currency,otherwise in a few months we'll be down the same road again

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/06/greece-rejects-the-troika/

"The Troika’s demand was for austerity to be deepened solely by taxing labor and reducing pensions. Its policy makers had vetoed Syriza’s proposed taxes on the wealthy and steps to stop their tax avoidance"

Tells you all you need to know,hit the poorest first

[baybizz]

See my posts in this thread:

http://community.ebay.com.au/t5/Community-Spirit/Greek-drama/td-p/1817770/

[joamur_gosof]

I agree to the bit EU crats biggest fear is Greece leaving and coming good ...that's why I said earlier they will say the greeks agree to pay,but privatley the debt (if thats what you call work for us rule) will be written off. Imo....Good luck to greece  though,but I feel for the German people as they will be getting longer hours again...not that fussed about the french mind lol

[lightblueberet]

"...the Greeks don't want to work..."

Whoa...wait a mo...no it doesn't seem at all obvious ! As a Brit in Greece, I can tell you first hand that that they work their **** off !

"...They want free money from Germany..."

So do I and, presumably, you as well, but are we going to get it...the hell we are !

The part about Germany paying off its debts, I'm not too sure about. I thought the Allies wrote them off, but I could be wrong here. Someone will correct me, no doubt !

[******lynda******]

I think Greece leaving the EU would probably be a good thing for Greece. If Greece was the only country in trouble in the EU, the EU would probably think it good for them too. But if Greece gets to leave and the debt or a proportion of it is cancelled, there are the others ready to follow suit...Spain, Italy, Portugal. The Eurozone would implode and that is why the big EU countries are trying so hard to keep Greece in. To protect the very existence of the EU and the euro. TBH we have expected the euro to collapse for some time. If tied to a common monetary policy, countries cannot devalue, adjust interest rates etc to suit their own circumstances. Greece lied about their books to get in, in 2002, but we all knew it at the time though not how much, and in 2009, Greece admitted the difference between their debts and their GDP was 4 times the amount allowed for entry.
The Greeks may be hardworking, but they had a large cash economy and their taxes were not collected to help pay for their services. They retired on good pensions aged 58. It was not just some wealthy people who avoided tax...a huge proportion of the ordinary people avoided tax too. This led to the debts they had even before they joined the EU and it seems they looked on the EU as a way to borrow to continue the lifestyle of no taxes and early retirement and grow a huge public sector. This has to change IMO, but in common with everyone everywhere, once one gets used to certain perks and looks on them as rights, it is difficult to persuade that they have to live differently to pay for their own public services and pensions etc.

We, in this country have huge debts, both as a nation and in personal debt. In the early 2000s I remember pointing out on these boards that personal debt in UK was as great as the GDP for the first time ever. Personal debt is now 1.3 trillion pounds. We, too, need to look at ourselves, because it is unsustainable.
Working longer makes sense as we live a lot longer, and I say this as someone who should have been getting state pension by now, but won't get it for years because of the way the changeover is being administered. I lose years of pension I have paid for.

[joamur_gosof]

again though the blame is firmly in the banks camp for allowing profiteers in the system to pretend money on paper income was actual assets and taking handsome bonus...thats all there is to it really...you can shift the blame onto the people by saying they all cheered on easy street ,but the people are not financial educated in the way the bank leaders are supposed to be (hence the job title)

...it appears to me niether were the people who worked at the banks helping themselves,and they damn well should have been regulated by the governments to make sure they were fiancially clued up and not borrowing norms for expensive whims when the assets didnt exist to cover the stupid amounts being branded about (but big bonuses to do it were flaunted )

...years and years ago this could have and should have been stopped at source ...the govs are to blame ..todays crew are getting to grips  but as all over europe now innocent lives are being brushed aside in the rebalancing.... (very very wrong without at the very least some kind of trials and punishments for those at the top involved in the mismanaging that is now the EU. 

[cee-dee]

Breaking news:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33437797

[joamur_gosof]

Damn I though it was going to be T Blair hauled into court ...ah well 🙂

[******lynda******]

The people have some financial awareness, but yes, the politicians must bear a lot of the blame. They promise the sun and the stars to sound more attractive than other parties to get elected. They have created a sense of entitlement and high expectation. There is a 'must have immediately' attitude instead of a 'do without till you have saved up' attitude that was more prevalent back in the day. They over borrowed to try and fill those promises.
The present regime of trying to reduce public spending reminds me of a convo I had with my overweight OH, who, on his diet, complained he had only had the equivalent of one proper meal in a day..he had effectively missed dinner. I, somewhat undiplomatically pointed out he had had that day's dinner, 10 years ago.

[joamur_gosof]

definite thats the change that caused it..now now now..your right we had to save to get...then the media forever flaunting millionaire pop or film and football lifestyles in your face got the ''we should have that too'' attitude ...now there is another major culprit who need hauling before the courts..the media.

Nonsense after nonsense spouted in this country since Thatcher let them in to big her up.....

Anyway back to Greece,I believe the EU should scrap itself now ,we have our own referendum and if it is legit then we may be out soon...so cameron calling on greeks to stay in is all spinning balls to me.They should start with Greece and encourage its transfer to dracma ?  (is that what its called) ? Then say follow with Spain Portugal Italy Ireland ..france and germany and Uk in a way could stay in a consortium with the other members and nothing should really change import export wise and a little help from the 'NEW eu for the leaving countries to get back on their feet and slaps on the backs all round..

A puzzler for me is we are in it but kept the pound ?>?????   so we lost a lot of the perks and burdens so we are really only a bit part.

Good luck to all the normal folk though ,whatever happens.

[baybizz]

>> The Truth About The Disastrous Euro Currency:

www.community.ebay.com.au/greek-drama/1820819#M519192

>> The 5th July 2015 marked a turning point in the history of post-war Europe - the moment when the euro currency began its inevitable collapse - and the European Union project itself started to disintegrate...

www/community.ebay.com.au/spirit/greek-drama/1821328#M519421

[cee-dee]

We're "in" the EU but thankfully not fully in the €urozone.

I've never understood why anyone thought it was a good idea for nations to "pay in" to some scheme which relied on €urocrats passing the money around making out that it was a "jolly good club to be in" when really, in the end game you end up paying in more than you got out of it.

Now if what was "The Common Market" was just an agreement for a free trade zone where goods moved and sold within the zone didn't attract any import taxes, that would be fine but the hidden agenda was always the creation of a United States of Europe with the USE dictating the rules on everything and eventually that would include the armed forces:-

"Er, Britains share of the USE Air force is six old fighters we no longer need and a handful of choppers. Oh yes, you can have a dozen old C130's too. As to the Army, you don't need one, the USE will protect you. Ah yes, the Navy, well there's some old French Corvettes, you can have those if you want. The subs you've got, we'll require those to be scrapped as they don't fit in to our Navy......."

Time I went