How important is gender to you?

[fallen-archie]

Passports and driving licences should not state if the holder is male or female because it causes problems for transgender people, a Conservative MP has said.

Maria Miller, who chairs the women and equalities committee, said the government should “strip back” talking about gender unless it was necessary.

A person’s gender was not relevant on official documents and created an unconscious bias in job and university applications, she said.

The rest of this story is here->  http://bit.ly/22Do9wz

At a time when Girls already outperform Boys academically, why do we need to deny our gender? What is it with those obsessed with so called equal opportunity, do they intend to legalise performance enhancing drugs in order that males and females can race against each other, Should we abandon traditional dress in favour of gender neutral clothing and should men not also be allowed to give birth?

[bankhaunter]

I shall ignore and be sympathetic to your plain lack of any understanding respect and tolerance for a particular faith.

Do you really think I haven't looked into it and did I mention any particular faith?

You have already demonstrated your lack of empathy.

[cee-dee]

Well, why didn't they do it when younger?

I think some of them are a fine advertisement for NOT doing it.

The young often are in a bit of torment and the ones that "look the part" before transition make the change well.

Looking at males, some of them before the change have female characteristics. They look "female", they walk "female", the body language is "female", the even "sound" female.

In comparison, blokes with thick wrists, "male" build,  a "male" walk ll end up looking like a badly made up bloke in drag after the change.

[margaret*e]

Maybe people over 60 would be scared they wouldn't be accepted when they were younger , when people weren't as tolerant as they are now.

[cee-dee]

The first TG I read about was April Ashley and it was a newspaper that blew her story for cheap sensationlism. Years later it was a newspaper that did the same to Tula.

I think those aged ones are less likely to be "accepted" because if they were truly TG they've lived a lie for so long.

[margaret*e]

Contrast that with the sympathetic way Bruce/Caitlin Jenner has been praised and encouraged by the press recently.

[cee-dee]

Yes, but at 66?

[ravendays]

Not being of a religious leaning I'd still add anyone's passport should surely include their gender at birth.  Otherwise you are opening the door to characters of dubious morals chaning identity to escape crimes.  A passport isn't a social network profile or a vanity item; it is means of identification to decrease the chance of wrong doers getting up to all sorts.  But on the grounds it is a Tory proposing this PC **bleep** it's hardly surprising; after all they let anyone in and out of the UK without batting an eyelid as of late.

[Anonymous]

I take it that you mean that they would pretend to be of a different gender and not really going through the process of changing gender.

Because I'm sure no one would do that just to escape a crime. It's not like some cosmetic surgery on your face.

[Anonymous]

I think those aged ones are less likely to be "accepted" because if they were truly TG they've lived a lie for so long.

Are you for real?

I'm sure that if people would have been more understanding in the past (besides the medical technology that wasn't as advanced) that those aged ones would have chosen not to live a lie. Same with all the gay people. But times were different. They kept their secret, often by marrying and having children. Some in the hope their feelings would change if they would live a "normal" life. Some forced by the religion they were brought up in, thinking they were sinners and would go straight to hell.

They would have become outcasts in their families if they didn't and that fear keeps the lie going. Outside opinion and pressure would force them to keep silent about their feelings.

Nowadays it is hard enough to change gender and a long process emotionally and physically. How do you think the aged ones have struggled with their emotions all those years. Don't they deserve the same compassion as the young ones?

Living in the wrong body must be total agony, extremely depressing and also mentally exhausting. Pretending that you are something you are not? It's like acting out a part in a film except that it can never have an end.

And to say that some basically already look the part and making them therefor more easily accepted is not much different than saying that ugly women or men should not bother. You are missing the whole point. It's not about the outside it's about the inside. They rather be an ugly woman or man than living in the wrong body. It's about feeling whole within yourself.

It's exactly your attitude that stops some from coming out. It's that attitude that keeps the lie going for some. Don't you see how discriminating you sound?

[cee-dee]

No, just honest.

[bankhaunter]

A passport isn't a social network profile or a vanity item; it is means of identification to decrease the chance of wrong doers getting up to all sorts.

Changing gender is not done just for social network purposes or vanity either

You can't get a passport without showing you are who you say you are, so the gender you were at birth is immaterial.

Should a passport include your baby pictures, of course not because you are no longer a baby.

[Anonymous]

Yep, just honest................................hmmmm........

Well it's that honesty that stops some from changing gender. It's that honesty that condemns some to live a lie. It's that honesty why aged ones have not come out any earlier.

It's that kind of honesty that hurts people young and old, it's that kind of honesty that makes people kill themselves, it's that kind of honesty that makes people hide away from the public, it's that kind of honesty that gives people low self esteem. And I could go on and on...................

It's easy to be "honest" behind the anonymity of a computer screen. And we all know what that kind of honesty can cause.............

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

I think those aged ones are less likely to be "accepted" because if they were truly TG they've lived a lie for so long.

Are you for real?

I'm sure that if people would have been more understanding in the past (besides the medical technology that wasn't as advanced) that those aged ones would have chosen not to live a lie. Same with all the gay people. But times were different. They kept their secret, often by marrying and having children. Some in the hope their feelings would change if they would live a "normal" life. Some forced by the religion they were brought up in, thinking they were sinners and would go straight to hell.

They would have become outcasts in their families if they didn't and that fear keeps the lie going. Outside opinion and pressure would force them to keep silent about their feelings.

Nowadays it is hard enough to change gender and a long process emotionally and physically. How do you think the aged ones have struggled with their emotions all those years. Don't they deserve the same compassion as the young ones?

Living in the wrong body must be total agony, extremely depressing and also mentally exhausting. Pretending that you are something you are not? It's like acting out a part in a film except that it can never have an end.

And to say that some basically already look the part and making them therefor more easily accepted is not much different than saying that ugly women or men should not bother. You are missing the whole point. It's not about the outside it's about the inside. They rather be an ugly woman or man than living in the wrong body. It's about feeling whole within yourself.

It's exactly your attitude that stops some from coming out. It's that attitude that keeps the lie going for some. Don't you see how discriminating you sound?

---

Another thought provoking post harry.  I did reply to your post 13,  thanking you for explaining your point so eloquently but somewhere along the way it didn't post, probably as I am getting used to using my new tablet rather than my old PC XXX

I made the point that I was quite aware of some peoples medical problems and care for and have great sympathy for them. I know very well it cannot be easy at all for them and all they want is to lead a normal life. I also said that to me these problems re enforce my own feelings of what a terrible system we live in and am so grateful that (in my honest opinion)all these terrible problems will soon be rectified. I truly believe it. I didn't want to go into what I believe the morals of it to be because that wasn't in the discussion, I still feel that the gender at birth should be what is included because it has everything to do with that person as a person, if for any reason extra information has to be added then that would be what should be done and if then tolerance of individuals preferences needs etc are progressed to be in place then it should not pose a problem from either side. Xxx

[cee-dee]

Just think about the people they've been associated with? Wives who've lived with and had children by a bloke who's suddenly come out with saying he wants to be a woman and has always thought that. A bit of a slap in the face? Very dishonest?

Now a young person who, from an early age either exhibits gender "problems" or actually says that they feel "wrong" should be considerately "dealt with" and checked out to see what their chromosome make-up is.

April Ashley had "the change" in 1960 so why didn't other the late changers?

I can't see how someone who exhibits all the characteristics of a male would really think they can carry off a successful "change".

They can no more do it than all the blokes who want to be fighter pilots or astronauts but just can't hack it.

[jd.linklater]

As others have said I think there are far more important issues in the world at the moment to be over concerned with the wishes of yet another minority group. A minority group which, it has to be said, seem to want to have their cake and eat it. They say they want to live their lives freely as transgender people without discrimination but don't want to be identified as such on official documents, to my mind that is a form of denial. Instead of removing gender identity from such documents why can't they identify themselves as TGM or TGF, I really don't see why it is such a problem. If you want to stand up for your rights as a minority then be proud of who you are, that is my idea of living freely in society.

[bankhaunter]

They say they want to live their lives freely as transgender people without discrimination but don't want to be identified as such on official documents, to my mind that is a form of denial.

If they have changed their gender to the one they feel they are, why is wanting to have that change officially recognised, a form of denial?

Not being able to do so is just like being told they can act as though they've changed their gender but as far as the world is concerned, they haven't.

A minority group which, it has to be said, seem to want to have their cake and eat it.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, are they not just wanting to be like anybody else and not be discriminated against?

The suicide rate among transgenders is horrific and much of it is due to society's failure to accept them for what they feel they are.

[Anonymous]

I can't see how someone who exhibits all the characteristics of a male would really think they can carry off a successful "change".

You're still missing the point. It's not about "successfully" carry off the change. It's how it changes them emotionally.

Anyway beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Just think about the people they've been associated with? Wives who've lived with and had children by a bloke who's suddenly come out with saying he wants to be a woman and has always thought that. A bit of a slap in the face? Very dishonest?

Yes I do feel that those they have been associated with had a very bad deal and so have the parents who gave birth to a son or daughter, their grand parents, their siblings etc... who wants to change their gender at the age of 20 or so.

It is shocking to say the least for all those people involved, not just some of them.

Dishonest? Or maybe forced by society, culture, family and religious expectations of them to live a lie.

[aernethril]

I'm rather confused because I do not believe that a person has to keep their birth gender whatsoever.

So I cannot see it is correct to insist that this is the case.

My feelings around having a gender stated on passports is that it makes it harder for anyone to pass themselves off as another person, and that's not as crazy as it sounds.

Some time ago, where I worked there was someone who came to 'fix' things from an outside company. 

By the time I started, (and I was 'warned' about the "freak" by the truly abysmal eejits I worked with) 'he' had got to the stage of having gone through the discussions and counselling etc was using a new name, and was experimenting with developing what 'he' felt would be his new femininity - wearing long blonde wigs, skirts and heels, make up and nail polish and also experimenting with racial changes too, from mixed afro/carribean/euro to wanting to feel more 'european', no small step at all.

Over the time I worked there it was really rather a humbling experience to see 'her' develop as she progressed to hormone treatment, change her name formally, take such things as abuse in her stride, use the ladies toilets (and yes, there were those who openly objected in case 'her' male member peed on the seat, referred to her as "it"), see her complexion blossom and listened to her voice changing, her walk and mannerisms becoming totally natural.

I left before I was able to witness her final step.

I chatted to her quite a bit because she was doing a messy job almost always done by men (and she was one of the best in her feild) and I believe she was very happy to chat about things that affected her and her newly developing femininity - such as how did she manage to keep her nails looking so good, because she loved them and they were beautifully done. We also chatted about how she wanted to move on from the job to something she felt was how she wanted to develop.

I don't now if she went on holiday abroad during the time of her changing which must have taken nearly 2 years or more.

So this is just one difficulty - at what point would this person need a new passport because there were clear facial and body changes, not to mention change of name etc? 

We could say that the person should be allowed to apply for a new passport when they felt they had changed and had a new official name, but technically, until they take the final step of reassignment surgery, they are in a bit of a limbo, because they could still change their mind.

Passport photos are not really that brilliant and it really would be far too easy for someone wanting to avoid the law, to use another similar looking person's identity with the excuse that they were in the process of gender change?

I know we're probably talking about a totally miniscule problem in the great scheme of things, but that's just one thing that springs to mind.

It's not about forcing people to remain one gender permanently, but accepting that, realistically, mostly someone is either physically male or female, (apart from those who are born with intersex conditions who do tend to identify themselves as one gender or the other).

A person's sexual orientation is a different matter and whether they are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or other, does not change their gender.

There is a recent development (probably more than one variation) where people are saying they are no longer male or female but rather 'identify' with something different and want to be referred to as 'them'.

Well, this is actually nothing new (and I'm speaking from personal family experience from decades ago), but more and more we're seeing people who hit the news because they want to be 'recognised' - they want to be 'special' - yet they are still male or female.

What they 'identify' with is their business and frankly not that 'special' at all and more common than they want to believe.

But one thing they are not, is genderless.  They may want to dress to look like a member of the opposite gender for a day or more, but they are still either male or female physically.

If it's a woman, she cannot grow a beard (as an example) for a day or two or use a urinal - she is still of the female gender and really, it is just those who have a problem with deciding if they are male or female at any one time who I can see as having issues with being described gender-wise.

But, that's a mental issue and in the great scheme of things, whilst the potential for abuse of passports may be very small, I'd rather allow the continuation for more complete physical descriptions of people to remain in place than to keep pandering to the vocally loud but relatively very few who feel the need to keep pushing their 'specialness' in our faces.

[cee-dee]

I'm not missinhg the point at all.

When they don't successfully carry off the change, they know full well (in their heart of hearts) they've not carried it off well and that makes them feel worse.

Similar to fighter pilots and astronauts, it's no use wanting to become one if you know full well that you can't.

I've not (knowingly) met a succssful TG but there used to be one here and he was as bad an example of a TG as you could wish to see (or not). There was absolutely NO way he could pass himself off as a woman and no amount of flamboyant hairstyes, inappropriate clothes and heavy make-up would ever convince anyone he was a woman. He was frequently attacked and ended up being murdered.

The look is all part of it and thick wrists, masculine hands, a manly gait and a masculine look just will not help a successful transition. The old saying is "You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear" and no matter how much someone wants to, it ain't gonna work.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I'm confused by this thread and the Guardian article.

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 gives those who have undertaken a sex change to apply for a Gender Recogition Certificate.  Once this has been issued they can then apply for a new Birth Certificate which will be issued showing their 'new' gender and is nodifferent from any other birth certificate.  This can then be used to apply for a passport, driving licence etc. which will show their current gender.