Corbyn in the Calais 'Jungle' camp.

[merehazle]

Read all about it:

He says: ''Let in all refugee children''. On a chaotic tour of the Calais camp, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn calls for Britain to open it's doors to 'hundreds of thousands'. Corbyn suggested UK should admit unaccompanied children immediately. His call came on tour of two migrant camps in Dunkirk and Calais.

Excuse me! These vulnerable children are already in a civilised country, i. e. France, so why aren't they looking after their welfare?

'Unaccompanied children'. Are you really that dense Mr Corbyn? These 'children' have made their way through Europe, found their way to Calais. Hang on .... I think that's Mum and Dad peeping around the corner. Perhaps as soon as all of the 'unaccompanied children' establish themselves on British shores, the relatives will come out of the woodwork with a demand to be reunited with their 'lost youngsters'.

I was comparing my picture in my attachment to these people in that camp. And they in the camp IMO should count their lucky stars. Many in obviously expensive gear, and very well fed. Why are some hiding their faces? With so many homeless on our streets your priorities are wrong!!!  Mr (lovely me?) Corbyn.    

[cee-dee]

You're absolutely right there. Reporters are often only looking for something sensational to report, I don't think they really feel much for what they're reporting, they're only looking for "the good story" and then it's on to the next thing when their sensationalism has run its course.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

One of the pictures in your link CeeDee, showed a very small baby. How on earth did that baby arrive unaccompanied...it obviously couldn't, as it couldn't walk. It must have been brought in by adults, probably it's parents. I have a feeling that these photographs of sweet little children are used as propaganda, and they are not as they appear. Just as the photograph of the little drowned boy Alain was flashed around the world.

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I am sure you are correct that pictures of that very young child provided a photo opportunity in just the same way of that poor boy, one of many, that drowned did.

However whilst these two cases are not typical they do happen.  You ask how that young child could have arrived unaccompanied - UNICEF have recorded a number of cases where the parents of very young children have died or been killed in their travels and yet more who have become split from their parents in camps and have been helped to reach safety. 

Most fellow travellers with an ounce of humanity would not leave an orphaned or lost child at the roadside to fend for themselves.

[merehazle]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Have a read of this:-

http://news.sky.com/story/1629285/kids-in-care-moved-away-after-refugee-influx

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Yes...I have a read it. 

And some might take their time and try to read ALL of the posts. That is a selection of what so many of the British people think right across our country. Most politicians with a care for what they think would act on it.

And if they cared we would not be in this situation now. Never mind the practicality's. And never mind what we have coped with for so long. It will all turn out right in the end for those that don't care. It has always been the same. Off they will go to the leafy suburbs, and await their honours.

I dreamed last night that Corbyn arrived at PMQs today swinging on a vine from the gallery dressed as Tarzan,  yelling the Tarzan call. Well he was in the jungle camp and must have learn't something? Even this:

He was Swinging on a Rubber Band

And he (Corblimey) got hit by a Frying pan

Ouch that really hurt

Now Tarzan has a tan

And I hope it don't peel

I said I hope it don't peel

Like a Bannana.   

Actual lyrics. (I changed a word):manwink:

[upthecreekyetagain]

I have been browsing the web on this subject and there are some really tragic stories - the 14 year old who saw his parents shot in front of him, the 15 year old girl whose parents died on their trip from Libya and having made it across Europe on her own was then raped at the camp in Calais, the baby left abandoned in a camp in Turkey and so on.

On the other hand there are the 6 foot men claiming to be 14, parents using their children to gain residency and so on.

Neither set of circumstances tell the whole story and their are numerous 'stories' that sit between those two extremes.  That's the problems with numbers, a simple headline stating that the government wants to admit x number of children hides the circumstances behind those individuals and elicits extreme positions on both sides.

Yes, the media are guilty of dramatising individual cases, such as the tragic story of the drowned boy, in order to make 'news' - they are just as guilty of publishing stories that dramatise the cases of the 'rogue' refugees.  Both sell and are devoured by individuals of all sorts of persuasion and in both cases the consumer ends up treating all these individuals as just part of number not as human beings.

[*.*..lola..*.*]

Yes, the media are guilty of dramatising individual cases, such as the tragic story of the drowned boy, in order to make 'news' - they are just as guilty of publishing stories that dramatise the cases of the 'rogue' refugees. Both sell and are devoured by individuals of all sorts of persuasion and in both cases the consumer ends up treating all these individuals as just part of number not as human beings.

You're right, Creeky.

If this wasn't happening on our own doorstep, threatening our own way of life, our own safety and security, we would be much more sympathetic and moved by what is happening to these people.

It's the sheer, never ending volume of migrants that is so overwhelming and making it hard for us to visualise each and every one of them as an individual person with their own tragic tale to tell.

Add to that the real fear that in amongst the innocents, there are terrorists, ISIS sympathisers and Muslim extremists whose ultimate aim is to either blow us all up and/or convert the whole world to Sharia law.

Where will it all end? I can see no end in sight to these conflicts and none of the world leaders appear to have a clue how to deal with this situation which is even more frightening.

I don't often agree with Astrologica but I totally 'get' this comment:

I am sorry for these people, but there is not one thing I can do about their situation, and I am thinking that I just do not care any more. It is just depressing.

I feel guilty and sad and angry and frustrated and scared and ashamed everytime I think about what is happening to these people and it is making me not want to read about it or think about it anymore and that makes me feel even more guilty and I'm not proud to admit to any of that.

[astrologica]

Have another browse on the web Creeky....see what you can dig up about the suffering of British people. People who are sick and in need of treatment but can't get it because our NHS is fully stretched. People with cancer who are being denied suitable drugs. People who are sleeping on the streets because they have nowhere to live. Kids who are not going to the schools of their choice, because the schools are full. People with mental illness walking the streets because the waiting lists are too long. Kids being abused because there aren't enough police. There is ENOUGH suffering in this country now, without adding more to it. We should look after our own first. Europe is like the Titanic. Everyone can't get in the lifeboat that is the UK. The lifeboat is FULL. Any more and we will capsize (we probably will anyway.)  Sadly...as with the Titanic...some will drown, some will be saved. I am sick to death of people with the luxury of a bleeding heart, but not the necessity of a little foresight telling us that we have to take in these people. In a few years all those in Europe now will be Europeans, with passports, and the right to come here. And then where will we be? Roll on the referendum.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

Have another browse on the web Creeky....see what you can dig up about the suffering of British people. People who are sick and in need of treatment but can't get it because our NHS is fully stretched. People with cancer who are being denied suitable drugs. People who are sleeping on the streets because they have nowhere to live. Kids who are not going to the schools of their choice, because the schools are full. People with mental illness walking the streets because the waiting lists are too long. Kids being abused because there aren't enough police. There is ENOUGH suffering in this country now, without adding more to it. We should look after our own first. Europe is like the Titanic. Everyone can't get in the lifeboat that is the UK. The lifeboat is FULL. Any more and we will capsize (we probably will anyway.)  Sadly...as with the Titanic...some will drown, some will be saved. I am sick to death of people with the luxury of a bleeding heart, but not the necessity of a little foresight telling us that we have to take in these people. In a few years all those in Europe now will be Europeans, with passports, and the right to come here. And then where will we be? Roll on the referendum.

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You are right of course - there is suffering everywhere - I also believe that no one person is more deserving of help based on the lottery of where they were born.

You say, "We should look after our own first" but who are 'our own'.

Why should I consider an orphan in say Bristol as more deserving of help than one in Calais - I know neither nor am I ever likely to meet either - shouldn't the help they receive be determined by their needs rather than their location?

Your comparison with the Titanic brings to mind the way people on that ship were treated determined by which ticket they had - the survival rate of those in steerage was miniscule compared to those in first class - I don't believe those in first class had any more right to survive just because, like the UK, they were rich.

[joe_bloggs*]

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@astrologica wrote:

Have another browse on the web Creeky....see what you can dig up about the suffering of British people. People who are sick and in need of treatment but can't get it because our NHS is fully stretched. People with cancer who are being denied suitable drugs. People who are sleeping on the streets because they have nowhere to live. Kids who are not going to the schools of their choice, because the schools are full. People with mental illness walking the streets because the waiting lists are too long. Kids being abused because there aren't enough police. There is ENOUGH suffering in this country now, without adding more to it. We should look after our own first. Europe is like the Titanic. Everyone can't get in the lifeboat that is the UK. The lifeboat is FULL. Any more and we will capsize (we probably will anyway.)  Sadly...as with the Titanic...some will drown, some will be saved. I am sick to death of people with the luxury of a bleeding heart, but not the necessity of a little foresight telling us that we have to take in these people. In a few years all those in Europe now will be Europeans, with passports, and the right to come here. And then where will we be? Roll on the referendum.

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No doubt there are many people who would have us choose our own people over some distant child we will never probably see,but that just supports the governments tale of no resources,we cannot house our own homeless so we cannot possibly house refugees,Rollocks,according to Shelter there are 10 empty homes for every homeless family in the UK,We have billions for nuclear weapons we never can use,MP's pay rises and billions lost in taxes to large companies,and even more for a rail project to get people out of london a bit faster.Its a big lie to say we don't have the resources for to look after our own people,we do,what we don’t have is the govermental will to distribute those resources even slightly fairly,or to deploy them based on need.

Help whoever you can help,in whatever way makes sense to you and you will find that by maybe doing a little task for someone,or helping out with a little bit of cash to tide someone over,when least expecting it you will be rewarded.You know when i was a kid my dad used to say this to me,and to be honest i hadn't a clue what he was on about,but throughout the years i have found this to be very true indeed,he used to call it natural law,Probably called karma or something fancy now

[merehazle]

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@astrologica wrote:

Have another browse on the web Creeky....see what you can dig up about the suffering of British people. People who are sick and in need of treatment but can't get it because our NHS is fully stretched. People with cancer who are being denied suitable drugs. People who are sleeping on the streets because they have nowhere to live. Kids who are not going to the schools of their choice, because the schools are full. People with mental illness walking the streets because the waiting lists are too long. Kids being abused because there aren't enough police. There is ENOUGH suffering in this country now, without adding more to it. We should look after our own first. Europe is like the Titanic. Everyone can't get in the lifeboat that is the UK. The lifeboat is FULL. Any more and we will capsize (we probably will anyway.)  Sadly...as with the Titanic...some will drown, some will be saved. I am sick to death of people with the luxury of a bleeding heart, but not the necessity of a little foresight telling us that we have to take in these people. In a few years all those in Europe now will be Europeans, with passports, and the right to come here. And then where will we be? Roll on the referendum.

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I found this when browsing astro:    (See attachment)   Oh goodnight, might be back tomorrow.  

[astrologica]

Joe.....I totally agree that successive governments could do more to help our own people, and that the wealth of this country could be distributed a lot more fairly. But do you think that importing more and more needy people is going to change our Governments way of thinking? They would just carry on as they are now, but whatever help there is would have to be distributed a lot more thinly to go around. It isn't just a matter of money either. There are cultural differences to be overcome. We would all like to live in a country, indeed a world, where race or creed doesn't matter, and everyone lives in harmony, but in reality that doesn't, and never will, happen. Already there is friction in other European countries that have allowed in a lot of migrants. Do you want that here? I certainly don't. I am getting on a bit, but I don't like the vision of what this country will be like for my grandchildren.

With regard to your views on Karma...I have found that to be very true. I have always tried to help others in any way I can, whether with a kind word or with practical help, simply because it is the right thing to do. But this current crisis is beyond me, and anything I can do. Any Karma will fall back on the EU...and it seems it won't be long in coming.

[start-the-fire]

With the muggings and shootings in the camp this week im looking forward to having them as my neighbour - not

https://www.rt.com/news/329605-dutch-reporters-attacked-calais/

Or will we end up as Germany did over new year, which is only the tip of the ice berg

Do you honestly think the NHS can cope with a large influx of people, when its barely coping at the moment.

Dont know where all these spare houses are at the moment or where they are-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34311522

Certainly the housing stock has gone down with the right to buy, and every tom dick and harry buying their parents council house at 40% of the value its nots suprising.

I have much sympathy for children caught up in this and much should be done to help them, but on the subject it would be pure lunacy to have an open door policy, even Germany is considering closing theirs, and will no doubt be the downfall of Merkel.

Also we should take into account net migration in the uk 2014 was 2.5 per thousand in Germany it was 1.06 per thousand, Germany had a waining population.Germany is almost a third larger than the uk.and looking at low birth rates you could see how they would initially welcome an inflix of migrants.

The uk could not adjust and cope with a large influx of migration, those who do obviously dont travel much.

[astrologica]

Creeky ..it's not a matter of rich or poor. Why on earth would we want to import thousands of needy people, when we already have thousands here. When I say 'our own', I mean people who were born here, or who have lived here a very long time. If we bring in thousands of migrants, the government are not going to change their modus operandi..it will mean that the resources we have now will be stretched even further. It would be madness...and would cause a lot of resentment. I am waiting for an operation for a very painful condition. I would be very angry if my long wait for that operation was made even longer, because someone who has just arrived needs treatment. Our resources in most areas..health, housing, schooling etc are finite. There are other rich Arab countries that should be doing more.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

Creeky ..it's not a matter of rich or poor. Why on earth would we want to import thousands of needy people, when we already have thousands here. When I say 'our own', I mean people who were born here, or who have lived here a very long time. If we bring in thousands of migrants, the government are not going to change their modus operandi..it will mean that the resources we have now will be stretched even further. It would be madness...and would cause a lot of resentment. I am waiting for an operation for a very painful condition. I would be very angry if my long wait for that operation was made even longer, because someone who has just arrived needs treatment. Our resources in most areas..health, housing, schooling etc are finite. There are other rich Arab countries that should be doing more.

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On a personal level it may not be a matter of rich or poor but it certainly is on a national and refugee level.  I don't understand why I should have a greater humanitarian concern for someone in need who was born here compared to someone from outside who is asking for help.  You nor I had any choice where we were born, the children who have escaped from Syria and lost their parents for whatever reason had no choice where they were born - So I ask again, why should I have a greater concern for an unknown orphan in Bristol compared to one in Calais?

I understand what you are saying about the NHS and can understand your feelings if your operation were delayed - would it though make any difference if the reason for the delay was down to a child in the UK needing treatment more urgently or a refugee child that had come to this country?  Would it make any difference to your feelings if your operation is carried out earlier than expected because of the large number of immigrants working in the NHS? 

I have been hospitalised four times over the last few months in the cardiac wards - probably due to the type of ward and the consequent age of the patients, all the individuals over the four occasions were white and British - on the other hand white faces were a tiny minority amongst the doctors, nurses and support staff - my three operations were carried out by a charming, and very skillful lady who came to this country from the Lebanon about 8 years ago.  These experiences may be why my view of the NHS is somewhat skewed in favour of immigration.

Finally I agree there are some Arab Nations that could be doing a lot more but on the other hand there are a number, (Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq), who are doing far more than we are in Europe with a lot less in terms of resources.

[Anonymous]

As I see it.....We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

It's "dweilen met de kraan open" (mopping with the taps open) as we say in Holland, which means we're fighting a running battle.

[evoman3957]

Not having control of your own borders, is not having control of your life and if you relinquish THAT.........you deserve what you get.

[merehazle]

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@astrologica wrote:

Creeky ..it's not a matter of rich or poor. Why on earth would we want to import thousands of needy people, when we already have thousands here. When I say 'our own', I mean people who were born here, or who have lived here a very long time. If we bring in thousands of migrants, the government are not going to change their modus operandi..it will mean that the resources we have now will be stretched even further. It would be madness...and would cause a lot of resentment. I am waiting for an operation for a very painful condition. I would be very angry if my long wait for that operation was made even longer, because someone who has just arrived needs treatment. Our resources in most areas..health, housing, schooling etc are finite. There are other rich Arab countries that should be doing more.

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At # 33. Not.

'So he asks again, why should he have a greater concern for an unknown orphan in Bristol compared to one in Calais?'.

We could try ''equal'' concern. And mostly we do. But we have to draw a line somewhere. The child in Bristol we must assume for the point of this argument was born here. And is a British national. 

 Talking of ''searches'' he might even have searched out this one: Saudi Arabia had offered to build 200 Mosques in Germany for Syrian migrants. Politicians said the offer was 'cynical' because of the nations foreign policy. They argued that Saudi Arabia should help by taking in some migrants. And also say they are creating refugees with military campaign in Yemen.

I think they need houses. NOT MOSQUES!!! That sums up Saudi Arabia - just sign a few few cheques and the problem will go away.  France have been hoping it will go away too. They may get their wish if Tarzan, Corbyn, gets his way. Oh dear,  Cameron said: ''That BUNCH over their''.  Well what happened to the SWARM?

Best wishes with your operation Astro.

[astrologica]

That old chestnut....'Immigration is good for us...'look how many of our doctors and nurses are immigrants'...that's not going to wash any more. Come on Creeky...how many of those wanting to come here are going to be brain surgeons, or doctors or nurses.? Just to be a nurse these days means you have to do a degree first. Those doctors and nurses that are here working for the NHS are worth their weight in gold, and the important thing is that they are working...and integrated.

And if my operation is delayed by another person needing it quicker than I do, then I have no objection at all. If it's a UK resident it is more likely that they or their forbears have contributed to the NHS In the past, than someone who has just arrived in the country and never paid a penny. If it were someone who has just arrived...then yes, it would make me very blerdy angry and resentful. The NHS is the NATIONAL Health Service...not the WORLD Health Service.

You obviously have a cardiac problem, as have I. Will you still feel the same ten years down the line if you have a cardiac emergency and can't get admitted to a cardiac ward to be treated by all those wonderful doctors and nurses, because the ward is full of people who have recently arrived? All these newcomers are going to put a tremendous strain on our health resources. People are going to die because there won't be enough wards and doctors, and ambulances to get people to hospital in time. I just hope it won't be you...or me.

And I don't think our government should be sucked into what is part of a big plan, formed some time ago, to flood Europe with Arabs and Africans.

[upthecreekyetagain]

There is a general misconception that all the refugees are ill-educated and poverty stricken.  Many are but the refugees represent a cross section of the citizens of Syria which prior to the Arab uprisings was a rich country with a well educated population.  The recent problems have not differentiated between the beggar in the street and the rich man in his mansion.  It has cost most of the refugees a good deal of money to escape which is why many are now destitute.

As for the NHS then certainly on the face of it St Thomas' in London and East Surrey in Redhill employ a disproportionate number of people from the ethnic minorities.  Nationally at the time of the last census 40% of all doctors and dentists were from the ethnic minorities compared to 13% of the population.

I still don't understand why you would feel resentful of an immigrant orphan delaying your operation in comparison to a UK born child.  Neither had any choice as to where they were born, neither have contributed to the NHS.

[evoman3957]

While I don't mean this as a sweeping statement of generalisation, let us not be so naive; as to not think that Children ARE used as pawns and have been throughout history.  For obvious reasons, they tug at the heart strings more than adults do and they're vulnerability is the very ammunition used by those that control them.  Remember, also, getting shot / stabbed by a Child ; can make you just as dead as by an adult.  That's why ISIS are training / brainwashing children, as young as 5, to be part of their society.  They can get closer to a target and be far more unlikely to be shot, than an adult would.  I'm sure that if they're being used at THAT level, then lesser usages are far more prevalent.

[astrologica]

The parents of a UK born child would be more likely to have paid into the NHS than an immigrant child. When resources are severely limited, there should be some sort of criteria when decisions are made. As I said earlier...we have the National Health Service and not the world health service. Everyone cannot be treated for free...it's just not possible. And the operation I am waiting for would not be performed on a child, so no child would delay it for me. But an adult might....and if they had not contributed I would not be a happy bunny. Do you not think that as I have worked all my working life, and contributed to the NHS, and am in need of this operation, that I should get it before any immigrant who has not contributed. If you don't agree...then your way of thinking makes no sense to me at all.