Corbyn in the Calais 'Jungle' camp.

[merehazle]

Read all about it:

He says: ''Let in all refugee children''. On a chaotic tour of the Calais camp, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn calls for Britain to open it's doors to 'hundreds of thousands'. Corbyn suggested UK should admit unaccompanied children immediately. His call came on tour of two migrant camps in Dunkirk and Calais.

Excuse me! These vulnerable children are already in a civilised country, i. e. France, so why aren't they looking after their welfare?

'Unaccompanied children'. Are you really that dense Mr Corbyn? These 'children' have made their way through Europe, found their way to Calais. Hang on .... I think that's Mum and Dad peeping around the corner. Perhaps as soon as all of the 'unaccompanied children' establish themselves on British shores, the relatives will come out of the woodwork with a demand to be reunited with their 'lost youngsters'.

I was comparing my picture in my attachment to these people in that camp. And they in the camp IMO should count their lucky stars. Many in obviously expensive gear, and very well fed. Why are some hiding their faces? With so many homeless on our streets your priorities are wrong!!!  Mr (lovely me?) Corbyn.    

[upthecreekyetagain]

Exactly - as does the attitude towards those who are victims.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices

"Current bigotry against asylum seekers, it's chilling to discover, closely mimics prewar anti-Jewish sentiments, and in both instances has been legitimised by British immigration policy. Rather than relaxing entry requirements for Austrian Jews after the Anschluss - Germany's annexation of Austria in March 1938 - the British government tightened them, introducing new, strictly controlled visas precisely to restrict their numbers."

"The process...was designed to keep out large numbers of European Jews - perhaps 10 times as many as it let in." Around 70,000 had been admitted by the outbreak of the war, but British Jewish associations had some half a million more case files of those who had not"

[evoman3957]

but that basic mentality I mentioned, also creates the victims in the first place and therefore propergates a problem that would otherwise not exist at all. When it comes to Human Beings, one size does NOT fit ALL.........why is that simple fact, is such a hard one to understand ; among those that want a world fashioned in the way THEY see fit.

[upthecreekyetagain]

The number of people that want to "fashion the world" their way are relatively small, most of us just want to get on with our lives.

Democracy is a double edged sword, it allows those who want power to gain this by promising the general population unrealistic dreams of health, happiness and prosperity for all - the more that promises are made the more people come to expect them as a right but if the resources in order to fulfil those dreams cannot be delivered by the citizens then they have to be found elsewhere otherwise democracy means those in government will not remain in power.

That has been the classic cause for most wars started in the West and remains so.  Added to that we now have the situation where in parts of the World power is being exercised by making promises not of this world but the 'next'.  The two, almost by definition cannot co-exist yet we need the resources that are available in that part of the World where democracy is not the prime power broker so try to impose our 'values' which unsurprisingly results in conflict.

There are many areas across the World which do not have governments that match our sensibilities yet because there is nothing there 'we' want 'we' leave them alone.  Whether or not this is the 'right' thing to do is open to debate but it undoubtedly results in fewer conflicts.

[astrologica]

One of the biggest problems this world faces is overpopulation. And both the Islamic and Catholic religions urge their people to go forth and multiply. It's high time that both these religions arrive in the 21st Century and realise that breeding like rabbits is not good for their people. A family's resources are more easily stretched between two children than five or six children.

[evoman3957]

What I find unbelievable , is the fact the only the most naive of people; can't see the following. If Human Beings are prepared to lie, cheat, steal, murder, manipulate, etc. etc. to get what they want in life ( when they are not under pressure to ensure their own survival and that of their families )........what lengths do you think they'd go to; when they are under those pressures. Do our European "Brothers & Sisters" ( joke ) only honour the schengen agreement, if they know refugees / immigrants are going to pass straight through their own countries and on to somebody else's......and then put up boarders, when they look as though they are going to stay. People sure have a warped view of who their friends are in life.  It's not about refugees / immigrants being kept safe, after fleeing areas of conflict, if it were; they'd stay in the first safe country they arrived at. If a country couldn't take that many immigrants ( because perhaps it was the first one they ALL arrived at , for instance ) that would be understandable and agreement would have to be reached to share the burden, among all the safe countries. However, for several countries to open their boarders and let all the refugees / immigrants through, to pile up in Calais, in a camp of THEIR OWN creation is NOT the answer. Whoever can't see THAT, will never see ANYTHING. They may not have fled their own countries by choice, but they ARE in Calais BY CHOICE !!!

[upthecreekyetagain]

The problem wih what on the face of it is an eminently sensible suggestion the simple answer is that if having gone through all the hardships they have, just to escape from the conflict, they then find themselves in a camp with no prospect of work or decent housing then of course they are going to move on to somewhere where they hope their prospects will be better.

These are people, who like yourself were, working hard, probably owned their own houses, a car and all the other attributes of modern life.  So now imagine what you would do and how you would cope if you had to suddenly flee from where you are - ending up in a country you know nothing about, can't speak the language and are virtually locked up in a refugee camp.  What would you do?  Just sit there and accept it and say thank you so much for offering safe refuge and occasionally throwing some food my way - I'll stay here!

[evoman3957]

So you're telling me that every Country they've passed through, between Syria & Calais, has offered then no hope of a safe future; with expectations of work etc. etc. ..........and only little old England can meet their requirements..........get real for gods sake !!

You also say, would I stay there and put up with it; or move on. Some have been in Calais for YEARS.......not just weeks or months, they're sure as hell not in a rush to move on are they !!  It doesn't even cross their minds to claim asylum in France or Austria or Germany or Italy or or or or.

[Anonymous]

Let's hope for other countries around us that the English never have to flee this lovely island..............

Then you will see some fights....

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@evoman3957 wrote:

So you're telling me that every Country they've passed through, between Syria & Calais, has offered then no hope of a safe future; with expectations of work etc. etc. ..........and only little old England can meet their requirements..........get real for gods sake !!

You also say, would I stay there and put up with it; or move on. Some have been in Calais for YEARS.......not just weeks or months, they're sure as hell not in a rush to move on are they !!  It doesn't even cross their minds to claim asylum in France or Austria or Germany or Italy or or or or.

---

So you tell me why they are there!  It can't be for benefits because as an illegal immigrant they won't get any.  It can't be for housing because if they're an illegal immigrant they won't get any. 

If they enter the UK as an illegal immigrant and claim asylum they can't work until a decision has been made or a year has passed - the same as in France - they'll receive a minimal amount to live on, (£36.95/week, £56.82 in France), and if they are offered some form of shelter whilst a decision is made it won't exactly be luxurious - the same as in France.  Asylum seekers are entitled to free health and dental care - the same as in France.

So again - why do they want to come here? - it couldn't possibly be for more practical reasons could it - many speak English, many have friends here,

The bottom line is that France receives twice as many applications for asylum than the UK does - hardly surprising considering how much easier it is to get into France than it is into the UK.

I'm not suggesting that all those who want to enter the UK should be allowed to do so - nor am I at the other extreme and say that we shouldn't take any - these individuals are human beings, with ambitions just like you and I - they deserve the respect of being treated as individuals and should be treated on a case by case basis - not just lumped together.

[evoman3957]

Well you're going to have a real problem, sorting the genuine ones out from the rest.......particularly in Calais and especially now they have been infiltrated, big time, by extremists, activists and other undesirables.  If you've ever played that game, where you put a dozen photographs of people on a table and then tell somebody to pick the good guys out from the bad guys......you'd know what I mean.  I haven't seen one person yet, who didn't "Bang up" a copper; while giving a suicide bomber, or mass murderer, a clean bill of health.  It only takes one and I bet you'd be chuffed if it was you or your family that paid the price.  It wouldn't even have to be somebody that radical, knowing their propensity for using knives; it might just be one in the street one day, who stuck it into you..........just because things didn't work out for him in this Utopian Country.........or perhaps he was a criminal back home and brought his values here with him.  "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".

[upthecreekyetagain]

Watch out, watch out, there's a bogey man about - I hope you don't look under the bed at night!

The idea of treating these men, women and children as individuals deserving of respect is obviously beyond you - I won't change my mind that every person on this Earth is worthy of respect until their actions show otherwise.  We'll obviously never agree with each other.

[evoman3957]

You're right we won't, because I've seen considerably more of that side of the World & Life than you have and what I love the most about you "Do Gooders" is that the life you inevitably cost;  is ALWAYS somebody else's.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@evoman3957 wrote:

You're right we won't, because I've seen considerably more of that side of the World & Life than you have and what I love the most about you "Do Gooders" is that the life you inevitably cost;  is ALWAYS somebody else's.

---

What "side of the World & Life" would that be?  You may be being a little presumptive.

I'm happy to be called a "Do-Gooder" and wear the title with pride - far better than being someone who does nothing.

[evoman3957]

Like I said, you keep wearing it with pride and letting others pay the price.  History is littered with armchair philosophers / generals, spouting what should be; like it's the word of god, instead of just an opinion..........and watching while others pay for it.  Go on, I'll let you have the last word, like you do practically every time; on every topic you're involved in on these boards.........you don't know any other way.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Why leave the thread?

I was hoping for an answer to why you think those in the Calais "jungle" are there.  You tell me to "get real" but offer no explanation of your own.

Likewise your cryptic and presumptive assertion that you have seen "considerably more of that side of the World & Life".  What's that all about.

[evoman3957]

Like I said, you had to have the last word last night.......was I right; or was I right ? I won't go on debating this, because I'm just wasting my time, energy and breath.......that's why I had a rest of a month or two from these boards; too much of the garbage that's spewed out on here, does my head in.

However, just to finally clear up / explain the deductions; I know where I've been and what I've seen in life and I know enough to know, that that produces a mindset that you don't have. When your life, or well being, hinges on you reading peoples body language and thoughts; you end up getting fairly proficient at it......out of necessity.  Perhaps it makes one somewhat cynical, who knows, but I'd rather be cynical and survive, than gullible and sorry.

As for those in Calais, they are there by design; NOT out of necessity.  When they left their Country of origin, they had a specific country in mind.....ENGLAND.....their paramount concern was not safety; wherever that would have been.  They Cherry picked a Country and they're going to stay there, until they get what they want.  Unfortunately, that is the very same thought process that ISIS have in selecting targets and also the same thought process that others have; who have hidden agendas.

I am the first one to pick a dying bird up and bring it home.  I sat in front of the TV for a hour, on one occasion, holding a bird and keeping it warm until it died......just so it didn't die alone; on a cold pavement.  However, if every time I went out; I found a thousand dying birds, I would have to react accordingly......whether it sat well with me or not. A program this morning said there were 5 BILLION people in this World, worse off than we are; many, I know, resigned to accepting their lot and making the best of it.  I count my blessings that I live where I live and the way I live, but it didn't come without a price; paid mostly by our ancestors......and so that their offspring could live in a free, peacefull and prosperous country........not a hotel, or a convenience for others; who find it easier to run, than stand and fight.

[Anonymous]

Fight or flight....................

By the sound of it you would fight, and I like to think that I would as well, but until I would be faced with real danger I would not truly know.

6 million Jews died in the second world war and the big question has always been...why didn't they fight back? They could have many would say. Why did the many not attack the few. Yes, there would have been casualties, but with so many they could have killed and overpowered their guards. Still it never happened.

So there are no clear answers about how people respond to a treat. And when there are kids involved it becomes even more difficult I think. Every parent wants their kids to be safe. My kids safety would come first, before my own.

I have read all the pros and cons on this thread and I sympathise with everyone. Everyone has made valid arguments why we should or should not take them in. But it hasn't brought any of us closer to a solution. Sending them all back isn't and keeping them all here isn't, so what is the solution, what would be a good solution that would make most of us happy. I get it that we can't rescue every bird, I get it that there will be hawks between the ones we do, but how do we make those choices. How can you say to one that they are deserving of our compassion and someone else isn't. Who are we to do that? I couldn't do it.

Instead of being problem focussed, which I feel we are mostly, we should be solution focussed.

We should stop arguing for our limitations (meaning arguing that we can't deal with the influx of the people, how it will be a drain on our system, how it will effect us personally, etc....) and maybe start bringing our strength into play.

The English pride themselves on being tough and strong, able and confident, proud to deal with what life throws at them, not afraid of a battle. Well that is the impression I get of them anyway and admire as well, I could be wrong though. So maybe we should look at how those strengths can help these people and not look at how they will hinder our lives, how bad things will get when they are here. But how well we can pull together to make all this work, to show solidarity, to show what we are made of, not just to our own, but as part of the human race. It's not going to be easy I'm sure, but maybe in the end more fulfilling.

The problem lies not with the immigrants, the problem lies with the world politics, the power and greed of governments. They have caused this. There is the root of the problem, and the real solution can only be found there in my opinion. The people who fled are the victims of the manipulations of the people in control. To condemn them for that seems wrong in my eyes.

“You must be the change you want to see in the world.”

[cee-dee]

Heck, how I wish for paragraphs and/or line breaks!

You've forgotten the Warsaw uprising? They fought back then and look what happened.

Before entering the concentration camps they had no idea they were heading for such a place, they thought they were being "resettled". When they got there, they had no idea that most were going to be killed. There was no fighting back as they were enclosed as the gas got them.

Those that were kept alive in the camps were too weak/ill to fight back.

A comparison between those migrants and the Jews is bordering on being offensive.

[Anonymous]

What line breaks and paragraphs are you talking about.. Do you see something on your screen in my post that I can't?

I wasn't comparing them CD.

I was commenting on the "stand and fight" comment of Evo.

And you don't have to educate me on what happened to the Jews. It's poured into the Dutch from the moment they go to primary school and every year in May we have weeks of it on the TV, so no one will ever forget.

[cee-dee]

I was looking at your post as soon as you posted it, not after you edited it!