Return / Refund Chain Issue

[macbooksurfer]

I find myself in an almost impossible position to/ catch22 situation with a buyer return / refund request!

In a nutshell...

1) Purchased an iphone on the 8th October described as "Apple iPhone 14 Pro - 128GB - Silver (Unlocked) - PRISTINE CONDITION."

2) Re sold on ebay said phone on 19th October as wanted a different model

3) Buyer started a return / refund request 11th November...

...under the faulty goods category

(he was stating the phone kept on rebooting and apple store he took it to confirmed a possible faulty logic board and quoted him more than what he paid to "repair")

4)  I started a return / refund request with the ebay seller I purchased from, only to realise that this was 34 days since I purchased and therefore outside of the 30 day return policy!

The seller I purchased from has yet to respond to my return request, and so I reached out to ebay customer servcices to ask for their advice.

They pointed out that the seller who sold me the phone is not under any obligation to accept the return / refund request as again its outside the 30 days to report any faults.

However they did advise that as its been x16 days there is some question as to why the buyer waited over x2 weeks to report said fault and request a return.  I.E he could have dropped it, or wear and tear caused the reboot fault to occur several days after he received it.

They stated that when I receive the phone back, to raise a sellers protection case against the buyer, basically stating that you've sent me back a faulty device which I cant re-sell and that in good faith I had sold the phone in perfect working condition.

Arrrrrgh!

But yeah, as soon as I get the phone back will contest with ebay that I received back a faulty deivce!

Thoughts?

[4_bathrooms]

You have to send a return label via the return request your buyer has opened within 2 days of the case being opened. If you don't the buyer can escalate the case on the third day - if they do that they will be guaranteed a refund at your expense and will be told they don't need to return anything.

Did you record the IMEI and serial numbers of the device you sent?

[macbooksurfer]

Yeah sent the automatic return label within minutes of the return being raised and yeah recorded all pertinent info of the phone 📱 

[papso22]

Did you use the phone at all before reselling it?

[4_bathrooms]

Just to point out there is no "chain" here. You had 30 days following the latest estimated delivery date to open a case against the seller you purchased from. I'm assuming they're a private seller as if you had simply changed your mind you could have simply returned the handset for a full refund within the timescale you stated if the seller was a business. 

[macbooksurfer]

Yup without issue for just over a week 

[papso22]

So you had no grounds for returning it to the original seller, even if in time.

[macbooksurfer]

Correct. What's frustrating is the bloke who bought it frome waited over X2 weeks to report the fault which is more than likely fling to go in my favour as far as seller protection goes aka can they price that it was broken from the get go? Why did they wait so long before reporting a fault etc 

[macbooksurfer]

No because the business seller had a no returns on the item 

[myriad*seller]

Business sellers cannot state "no returns"

It is automatically set to "Returns accepted" on business accounts because they  have to accept returns by law and under eBay rules 

Business sellers cannot change this 

[signs_and_vintage]

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@macbooksurfer wrote:

... so I reached out to ebay customer servcices to ask for their advice.

[...]

However they did advise that as its been x16 days there is some question as to why the buyer waited over x2 weeks to report said fault and request a return.  I.E he could have dropped it, or wear and tear caused the reboot fault to occur several days after he received it.

They stated that when I receive the phone back, to raise a sellers protection case against the buyer, basically stating that you've sent me back a faulty device which I cant re-sell and that in good faith I had sold the phone in perfect working condition.

 Regret this is merely 'get you off the phone' flannel designed to soothe - provided the buyer uses the returns label in time, the refund will be made in full once it arrives (if you don't). eBay only accepts the buyers word that something is wrong, they don't get involved in any kind of goods quality arbitration, this even includes if a completely wrong item is returned deliberately or otherwise.

[myriad*seller]

Fruther to what signs and vintage said (which sadly is correct)

The only ray of hope is if the buyer returns a different phone, you can report it to Action Fraud and give the reference number to eBay who *may* refund you as a gesture of goodwill but its not a given (especially if it was a high price item, as they often don't refund for high value items). 

[4_bathrooms]

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@macbooksurfer wrote:

No because the business seller had a no returns on the item 

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A UK-registered business cannot refuse remorse returns unless the item is bespoke (which an iPhone isn't).

Another problem you would have faced even if you were within the return window is you wouldn't have had the device physically in your possession in order to return it. Until you receive whatever your buyer sends back you don't even know if you're receiving the same handset back.

What service is the return label using? Is it Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed? 

[arkwebus]

I'm not quite certain as to what you mean [or think].  If the buyer opens a not as described case [ie not working properly] I very much doubt that ebay will find in your favour.    The two week delay does not really matter; eBay will accept a case as long as within 30 days.

This is what you wrote!

 which is more than likely fling to go in my favour as far as seller protection goes aka can they price that it was broken from the get go

EBay usually says something like "we never see what was sent or what was returned".  The situation is usually felt to be slanted in favour of the buyer.

You "may" [as you were too late to raise an ebay case against your seller] be able to approach the payment provider [card/bank] where the time limit is much longer. 

You also wrote:

But yeah, as soon as I get the phone back will contest with ebay that I received back a faulty deivce!

Thoughts?

That's surely the whole point of this?  The buyer opened a case for not as described to which you need to refund.  If you do not [within 48 hours] eBay will do so and give you an account defect I'm afraid.

@macbooksurfer

[4_bathrooms]

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@myriad*seller wrote:

The only ray of hope is if the buyer returns a different phone, you can report it to Action Fraud and give the reference number to eBay who *may* refund you as a gesture of goodwill but its not a given (especially if it was a high price item, as they often don't refund for high value items). 

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As I understand it eBay should protect the seller provided they are supplied with an Action Fraud reference number before the buyer receives any sort of refund (whether volunteered by the seller or forced by eBay). That's why when a different item is returned the seller must first file a report with Action Fraud, then use the "Report a problem" link in the case and supply the reference number from AF in their report to eBay. It must be done in that exact order; there doesn't appear to be much point appealing once the buyer has received a refund.

This protection is due to eBay's "managed payments" falling under the remit of the Financial Conduct Authority's regulation. eBay does have obligations to protect it's users against fraud but the process for sellers to report fraud to them appears to be fixed as above.   

[myriad*seller]

There does seem to be a financial cut-off point where they don't refund if an AF number is provided

Someone recently was refused a goodwill refund from eBay for an item over £500 

Oh dear, I just checked and it was £1000+

I don't think OP will get a refund from eBay for that much, even with a AF reference number I'm afraid. 

For reasons I could go into but won't, to protect other sellers. 

if you think about it, it's easy to see why eBay would not refund this amount... it would open up eBay to lots of high value scams 

[4_bathrooms]

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@myriad*seller wrote:

There does seem to be a financial cut-off point where they don't refund if an AF number is provided

Someone recently was refused a goodwill refund from eBay for an item over £500 

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If the process is followed correctly with the steps completed in the exact order stated the seller is not refunded by eBay - rather, the seller is not held liable for refunding the buyer. The "Report a problem" link closes the INAD case - stopping the automated process - and opens a new case against the buyer. The provision of an Action Fraud reference number during this process is the seller's "evidence" they are being defrauded.

If the seller voluntarily refunds the buyer eBay will wash their hands of the matter as that is effectively treated as the seller admitting they were at fault. If eBay automatically refund the buyer because the seller didn't use the "Report a problem" link before the buyer was able to escalate the case (or because the seller escalated the case themself) eBay will deem the seller to have "not met their obligations to the buyer" then likely deem that to be their final decision.

Besides the fact that I wouldn't list any handset, tablet, laptop etc. worth more than £150 on my private account if I had followed the stated process and eBay decided to refund the buyer at my expense anyway I would immediately appeal and request a final decision so I could take the matter up with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

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@myriad*seller wrote:

if you think about it, it's easy to see why eBay would not refund this amount... it would open up eBay to lots of high value scams 

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As stated; eBay wouldn't be refunding anything. The seller is unlikely to file a false report with AF as although AF don't do any investigating themselves - they're just the reporting service - they do pass details on to relevant local police forces if they think there is something worth them investigatating. A seller would have to be rather daft to give their own details to the police if they were in fact involved in the fraud themself. A regular poster to these boards (I forget who so hopefully they will pipe up) followed the process for a lower value item - they weren't held liable for refunding their buyer and thought that was the end of the matter. However, they were subsequently contacted several times by the police (much to their annoyance) who wanted to confirm some details about the transaction. So I don't believe everything reported to AF is simply digitally filed away and forgotten about.

If it is a higher value item I suspect eBay doesn't automatically refund the buyer out of their own pocket but sends some sort of affidavit (eBay loves those) for the buyer to complete. This would likely show a warning the information supplied "may be shared with local law enforcement" and request bank details matching those in the account along with some form of proof of ID before refunding anything (AML regulations). A genuinely injured party would have no problem supplying this information but a scammer might think twice once they realise the game is up. Although this part is purely speculative I can't imagine eBay would just hand a large sum of money over when fraud is suspected and they are subject to supervision under the AML regulations.

[pokepost]

This is why i hate selling on eBay, You’re at the mercy of finding a genuine buyer, Those 30 days hanging over your head wondering if they’re going to send an item back.

Any electronics i sell, I just do it through CEX or Facebook Marketplace cash in hand. 

But on the other hand, It could be a genuine problem with the phone, But you can’t prove he/she dropped it to break it eventually. 

[signs_and_vintage]

30 days? Far more than that if the buyer pulls a chargeback.