Quick query regarding selling items I've acquired by accident

[anne.craig]

Hi, just thought I'd pick the brains on here to find out where I would stand.  A company sent me a large box of new goods by accident.  I informed them and after they tried to get them collected, they were unsuccessful in finding a carrier who would take them and told me they no longer want them back.  If I were to list them on eBay would that constitute trading?  I normally only sell items I've bought or unwanted gifts and I don't want to end up in any difficulties with eBay or HMRC!  Any input appreciated, thanks!

[ruby*ryan]

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@anne.craig wrote:

No, it appears to be Nail Salon type stuff like nail care/treatments.  That's why I'm wary of selling it here, it might throw suspicion (as in previous posts lol) on my legitimate destashing of my nail polish collection, which I know for a fact were bought to wear, not sell.  When you have a collection of 5K plus items in a small flat, and are still buying for yourself, some unwanted items and unwitting overly similar items need to go to make more space!  Plus my tastes change as the years roll by!

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It's a bit of a coincidence that they are nail products, though, you have to admit. I also don't see how the company couldn't find a courier to collect them - how were they delivered?

[*vyolla*]

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@anne.craig wrote:

No, it appears to be Nail Salon type stuff like nail care/treatments.  That's why I'm wary of selling it here, it might throw suspicion (as in previous posts lol) on my legitimate destashing of my nail polish collection, which I know for a fact were bought to wear, not sell.  When you have a collection of 5K plus items in a small flat, and are still buying for yourself, some unwanted items and unwitting overly similar items need to go to make more space!  Plus my tastes change as the years roll by!

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I'd be a bit wary too, tbh. If you get yourself flagged up with HMRC and it leads to them taking a closer look I cannot see them accepting that you have/had a massive nail varnish collection that you bought to wear but didn't.

Personally, I wouldn't risk it, but it's totally your call.

[anne.craig]

Fedex from the USA.  I agree but it's not a coincidence really, they had gone through the Fedex hazmat processing process alongside my nail polishes with our same shipping forwarders and the forwarders accidentally switched the postage labels for two hazmat items going to the UK on the same day with the same initials for the buyers.  As soon as my delivery came I alerted them to what had happened and they managed to recall my correct delivery from Fedex and reship to me.  They asked me to mark the incorrect box as return to sender and hand back to the delivery driver when mine was delivered.  The delivery driver refused to take it.  I advised them of this and suggested they provide a return label.  They consulted with Fedex but because the goods are hazmat they will only ship from accredited packagers, not a private address.  No other carrier would do so either.  So even though they've made it to the correct destination country, no-one will take them any further.  Nor will the shipping company hand out details of the actual customer to me, so I can't let them know I have them.  The correct recipient will be refunded as an insurance claim.  The shipping company is in the US, as are the initial suppliers of the goods.  It's all a bit of a mess!  It's no cost to me to bin them, but it's also wasteful and I can't deny it would be nice to make a few quid from them - but not if there's pain attached in the form of HMRC issues.  I certainly don't want to end up being a business seller and would definitely chuck them out to avoid that.

[anne.craig]

Oh I totally get that, I think it's the case with many collectors - those not interested cannot possibly imagine why on earth anyone would own 20,000 empty crisp packets, or 500 pill boxes (or 5,000 nail polishes).  I think it's because we're barking mad!

[vinylscot]

In your post above, you refer to "our same shipping forwarders",  - private individuals don't tend to have "shipping forwarders". That also suggests that you are purchasing items of this nature from overseas, which would also point to a business, rather than a private seller. (I know it's human nature, but why would you continue to buy more, if you're attempting to sell off your "collection"?)

As has been pointed out earlier, it's not us you need to convince, it's HMRC.

Don't be fooled by those telling you it's only a small amount so it won't matter to HMRC. They are likely to pursue thousands of "slam-dunk" cases, to give them early success, and to send out a message, and they won't only be interested in your eBay activity. (If it is only a small amount, there won't be much tax to pay, if you play it straight, but don't think they'll "not bother" - they most certainly will.)

Perhaps you should do as previously suggested, and split your private and business items.

[anne.craig]

Interesting idea, but I don't have a car and I'm a total hermit, I don't think a car boot sale is for me!  I agree re the risks of used nail polish, I have bought plenty of it myself, but I do obey the rules on the selling platforms.  

[anne.craig]

I think you need to let this go!  Of course loads of private buyers have shipping forwarders!  It's just the overseas equivalent of a PO box, instead of paying $50 for each nail polish purchase to be shipped to the UK individually, I can pay $200 and get 15 purchases sent in a big box!  

See my previous post regarding collectors, if it's not your bag you won't understand, and it obviously isn't a hobby for many people in the UK.  It's actually fairly common in the US.  Indeed, if I was there, all of my lovely unwanted nail polishes would destash for top dollar.  However, I'm not, so I can only sell unwanted items for less than I paid.  It's massively annoying that I can't ship even a single bottle abroad as no courier will take them.  

[vinylscot]

OK. If you're happy with that story, go with it. I can't see HMRC biting though.

[anne.craig]

Sorry, hit post earlier than planned!

Pretty much my entire collection has been purchased from overseas, the UK is not a hotbed of artisan polish makers.  Mostly USA, some from Hungary, France, Australia, Singapore, Germany, Russia, Brazil, Canada etc - it's the nature of the hobby!

If I was a "head not heart" buyer, I would never buy another nail polish - what I have in my possession would last me for several hundred years.  But when an artist brings out their new collection, I can't help it - I am an absolute magpie (see also my massive boxes of clothes, shoes, jewellery, DVDs, books etc).  

I have made good online friends in other countries through a shared love of the artistry of these makers, including some of those makers themselves.  

I totally appreciate that IF I WAS BUYING TO SELL I'd be trading, but I am not.  I also know that there is every possibility of HMRC becoming interested (though I would say I'm currently on the cusp, around the right number of items, way below the money threshold though).  I am confident I can show I'm a collector having a clearout, not a business.  Hence my worry about these new items, which feel "businessy" to me.  

I know you have a gut instinct I am a business seller, and I will never convince you I'm not!  Even though as a vinyl seller your customers must be mostly collectors like me!

[moldosgifts]

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@anne.craig wrote:

Hi, just thought I'd pick the brains on here to find out where I would stand.  A company sent me a large box of new goods by accident.  I informed them and after they tried to get them collected, they were unsuccessful in finding a carrier who would take them and told me they no longer want them back.  If I were to list them on eBay would that constitute trading?  I normally only sell items I've bought or unwanted gifts and I don't want to end up in any difficulties with eBay or HMRC!  Any input appreciated, thanks!

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The highlighted section is what they have leapt on to define your exitance as a business andHMRC will be much the same. Not your intention but it does raise a few eyebrows.

In terms of the box of good how long ago did they send them if not long just leave it a few moths to sell them then they clearly become your unwanted positions.

[judydoodles]

I have a family member who collects items from Japan and has purchases forwarded by a mail service.  At some point someone in the family will deal with shifting these items when the collector passes away.  Collectors have a lot of stuff..A LOT!  It's mystifying to the outside world but it's their money and a harmless obsession.  Re the nail polishes, I have hundreds myself - more than I can use in my lifetime so I absolve myself from moments of guilt by selling on duplicate colours via boot sales.  We still aren't business traders, just collectors.  My own buying pattern certainly wouldn't make for a viable business model.

[anne.craig]

Fair point, I should have said "items I've bought for personal use"!  This box is newly arrived last week - but if I did list the items, it would probably be in a while, as I have dozens of my own items already photographed and not listed yet, so they'd be at the back of the queue!  Listing is such a time suck nowadays!  I saw sun a while back and rushed out to photograph a load of stuff, but editing and listing is a long-winded process.  

Kind of regretting my initial post now, in many ways, I hoped to avoid the old arguments but here we are.  However, I've had some good advice along the way, thanks for all of that!

[technthread]

This topic always raises discussion because of the number of angles people are interested in.

Some sellers on here in collectible categories have said sales are down. I know there is a lot more to it than just this, but I believe some collectors/ hobbyists are having a re-think about buying partly because these digital sales reporting rules are almost making their purchases a future liability. Buyers must be thinking, how am I going to get rid of this stuff in future now that my every move is being watched. 

[banditfrenzy]

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@anne.craig wrote:

Sorry, hit post earlier than planned!

Pretty much my entire collection has been purchased from overseas, the UK is not a hotbed of artisan polish makers.  Mostly USA, some from Hungary, France, Australia, Singapore, Germany, Russia, Brazil, Canada etc - it's the nature of the hobby!

If I was a "head not heart" buyer, I would never buy another nail polish - what I have in my possession would last me for several hundred years.  But when an artist brings out their new collection, I can't help it - I am an absolute magpie (see also my massive boxes of clothes, shoes, jewellery, DVDs, books etc).  

I have made good online friends in other countries through a shared love of the artistry of these makers, including some of those makers themselves.  

I totally appreciate that IF I WAS BUYING TO SELL I'd be trading, but I am not.  I also know that there is every possibility of HMRC becoming interested (though I would say I'm currently on the cusp, around the right number of items, way below the money threshold though).  I am confident I can show I'm a collector having a clearout, not a business.  Hence my worry about these new items, which feel "businessy" to me.  

I know you have a gut instinct I am a business seller, and I will never convince you I'm not!  Even though as a vinyl seller your customers must be mostly collectors like me!

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Do you know what the reasonable person test is? You are a trader masquerading as a private seller. You can convince yourself you are not, you can carry on trading & ebay will not care one jot, folk will jump to your defence & you will embrace them & folk will jump to point out you are a trader & you will dismiss them.

When/if HMRC look at all the info then I am confident you will be flagged as a trader. They will look at ALL the info they have access to, your bank accounts, your salary history, your benefits payments history, your tax history, your ebay account AND your Vinted account history (do you have any other selling channels)??? They will know more about you than you can remember yourself, they are going to ask you questions that they already know the answers to . . . & if you lie to them they will know you have lied & anything you say after that will also be considered a lie ! They are going to want you to justify to them why you have £5k of stock in boxes, why you have been purchasing cosmetics from wholesalers & do you really have receipts from all those store bought clothes? Do you visit many car boots, do you pay cash? Where does that cash from . . . "Show me where that cash comes from & remember . . . I have all the information. Do you visit many charity shops? Do you only pay cash there also? "Show me where that cash comes from". They are not fools, they can easily see your legitimate earnings & expenditure & they specialise in estimating how much tax you need to pay them on the undisclosed earnings.

You can fool yourself, you can fool ebay & you can fool the rest of us. None of that matters because you need to be able to fool HMRC.

Good luck.

[jonatjonatjonat]

its all gone a bit Liam Neeson here.

[lucy_farmer]

'do you really have receipts from all those store bought clothes?'

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Why would you have reciepts for store bought stuff?  Once you've found out that the garment fits/item works etc (or the warranty period is over)  why would you keep a load of unneccessary bits of paper?

You only keep all receipts if you *are* planning to sell on and put things against tax. 

Not if you're not.

[technthread]

Mixed with some Lavrentiy Beria.

Very unedifying to be honest. 

[judydoodles]

I plead insanity!   There is no rhyme or reason to my pattern of buying over the past 45 years and I'm sure other collectors would look at stuff I "had to have" and be as baffled as I am by my brother buying train tickets and 60 year old timetables to add to his collection.  Given the "innocent" source of the OP's freebies can be verified via the email chain quoted, I can't see those specific items qualifying the OP as a "trader".  List 'em and sell 'em I'd say.

Items I've sold for pennies a few years ago, today (resulting from scarcity over time) might sell for more than I originally paid, but I don't sit on say a handbag for 20 years hoping the price will go up.  I bought it because I wanted to use it.  My family would probably support my insanity plea and cite numerous foolish purchases.  Live and let live folks or another query gets lost on the Private/Business seller witch hunts.  HMRC will catch up with offenders or not, that's HMRC's problem.

[tressygirl]

Think I can perhaps beat your brother's  train tickets  collecting,  with this to be more baffling ! 😊

Many moons ago , decades really, on my travels I bought some chocolate bars in 2 different places in the Far East.  The paper wrapping was very pretty too pretty to throw away . I put two wrappers on eBay and it sold in minutes, with a lovely chappie messaging me that his young daughter would be thrilled, she collects chocolate and choc bar wrappers!

Remember,  eBay all started with  Pierre Omidyar not wishing to throw away a broken laser pointer as it was too ' pretty',   and sold it on his soon to be formed company ..... eBay !  😁

Maybe I should have got there before him , with my chocolate wrappers! 🙄 !

@judydoodles 

[anne.craig]

There are some weird accusations on this post.

My bank accounts are open to HMRC as everyone's are.

My salary history and PAYE accounts are held by them.

I submit annual tax returns to them.

I am well aware they have access to eBay and Vinted, I have no other selling outlets.  I don't sell many items.  Most of those listed at the moment have been up for months or years.

I have never and would never lied to them, so need not worry about being caught out.

I don't have stock in boxes, I have old clothes on a few hangers and a single box of stuff I've listed for sale, plus a second small box of stuff I plan to list (plus that new box that's just fallen into my lap).  Oh, and a stack of boxes of used shoes.  Everything else is not up for sale and is my own stuff!  

I've never bought anything from a wholesaler, a car boot sale or a charity shop.

Almost all of the items I own were bought online - there's an email trail for those, it's the really old stuff that predates the internet I don't have receipts for.

I spend my small amount of fun money on things I think I will love and usually do, I don't own a car, don't travel, don't socialise, don't own a house.  

This would be all be supported by a single look into my finances.  I have nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of, except maybe my tendency to excessive shopping.  This week I have sold one nail polish which I paid twice as much for about 10 years ago, and never got around to wearing, probably due to buying it with 10 of its siblings.  It's been for sale on both Vinted and eBay for about 5 years.  Plus one top, that I wore about a year ago and decided it no longer fitted, listing it on eBay immediately.  I probably got back a little less than I paid for it some 20 years ago.  What an amazing business that would make.  This was a good week for sales!

You may well be right that I look like a trader, obviously you are not alone in that belief, but you have no clue about me or my finances - I have no fear of HMRC, can fully justify what I own and am selling as personal property and I want to keep it that way, hence my initial question as ignored by you.  You may feel you have some moral high ground, I'm sure you have it tough as a small business - back in the day I had a business of my own and I know it's difficult.  I hope you at least feel better after your post.  Because it's a load of scaremongering balderdash from where I'm sitting.