Ebay's new buyer protection scam

[wayne15071965]

So I have been a seller on and off her since June 2001, Over the years I have sent items recorded delivery that either never turn up , or arrive with no notification of delivery.  Now someone wants to charge a buyer a fee for safe delivery, when they would have been charged that in the P&P cost.  Frankly it sounds more like a scam than customer service and Ebay are also trying to force us to use their shipping option, So much for free enterprise, sound like trying to get the monopoly on delivery as well.  As for hanging on the sellers cash til 2 days after delivery, really so post office goes on strike and you don't get paid, Think I may start looking to leave. So much for eBay's loyalty to us .

[new-model-armies-icons-of-the-realms]

I buy and sell, amongst other things, Hot Wheels cars as a hobby as I'm disabled and mostly housebound. I went to buy some yesterday from a private seller and noticed, on average, that Ebay was going to add around 70p on top of each item so I didn't go ahead. If it put me off then it's going to put off people looking at my listings. When I call eBay they thank me for being a customer for over 20 years but he bpf has effectively shafted private sellers. Whoever dreamt that up is either a little dim or it's designed to drive private sellers away or make them ecome business sellers. I'm still thinking of challenging it via citizens advice as it's an unnecessary surcharge for a service that's already implicit in the shipping price.

[papso22]

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@new-model-armies-icons-of-the-realms wrote:

I buy and sell, amongst other things, Hot Wheels cars as a hobby as I'm disabled and mostly housebound. I went to buy some yesterday from a private seller and noticed, on average, that Ebay was going to add around 70p on top of each item so I didn't go ahead. If it put me off then it's going to put off people looking at my listings. When I call eBay they thank me for being a customer for over 20 years but he bpf has effectively shafted private sellers. Whoever dreamt that up is either a little dim or it's designed to drive private sellers away or make them ecome business sellers. I'm still thinking of challenging it via citizens advice as it's an unnecessary surcharge for a service that's already implicit in the shipping price.

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Why do you think the BPF covers a service already included in shipping?  Ebay says:

With Buyer Protection, you benefit from:

• 24/7 customer service: Get support around the clock if you need help.
• Private sellers paid after delivery: When you purchase from a private seller, payment is sent after the order has been successfully delivered.
• Secure transactions: All payments are encrypted end-to-end and handled by our trusted payments partners.

Nothing there about anything to do with delivery.

[cobwebcottage]

You would be wasting your time as you have already said 'I buy and sell, amongst other things, Hot Wheels cars as a hobby'.

A hobby is, for example, collecting stamps and sticking then in to an album or buying wool for knitting. Once you choose to sell these items, you become a trader.

'it's going to put off people looking at my listings.'

When you buy from a private seller, there is a BPF to pay. When you buy from a business seller, there is no BFP. So the new system is aimed at making sellers think twice about how they are trading.

[martinwh1]

We all know that BPF is just a buyer's fee which replaces the seller's so eBay can extract some money from each deal.  You say you didn't but because eBay was getting 70p out of the deal but why is this relevant to a buyer ? Surely all  that matters is the question of the item being what you want and competitively priced. OK eBay have managed to seriousl;y damage private sellers sales but they don't really care.

[martinwh1]

It's OK regurgitating the rubbish eBay puts out about BPF but, at the end of the day, what protection does it actually offer?

24/7 customer service - great for insomniacs and night shift workers but what would you want to ask them? 

Private sellers get paid - does the buyer really care?

Secure transactions - are they seriously saying that, until they dreamt up this scam, payments weren't secure?

It's a buyer's fee pure and simple and why they didn't call it that in the first place beats me

[martinwh1]

"So the new system is aimed at making sellers think twice about how they are trading."

No the new system is aimed a earning some money from private sellers which have enjoyed free listings for too long. All it makes private sellers do is adjust their prices to take into account the buyer's fee so they  remain competitive with business sellers who have already included their seller;s fee in their prices. 

[superchallenge]

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@new-model-armies-icons-of-the-realms wrote:

 I'm still thinking of challenging it via citizens advice as it's an unnecessary surcharge for a service that's already implicit in the shipping price.

When somebody charges £2.70 for postage and the postage costs them £2.70 from Royal Mail, which part of the remaining £0.00 is reserved for buyer protection, please?

[jckl1957]

Ebay don't add the BPF onto postage cost, only the cost of the item.

The buyer will only pay BPF on the postage cost if the seller states 'free postage', includes an amount for postage in the cost of the item, but does not add poatage as a separate charge.

[honeymonster007]

Do you mean your trying to work out the resell value with the BPF included?

[superchallenge]

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@jckl1957 wrote:

Ebay don't add the BPF onto postage cost, only the cost of the item.

The buyer will only pay BPF on the postage cost if the seller states 'free postage', includes an amount for postage in the cost of the item, but does not add poatage as a separate charge.

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Yes, I know.

The person I'm responding to said the BPF was "an unnecessary surcharge for a service that's already implicit in the shipping price" and I was questioning why he thought buyer protection was "implicit" in the shipping price.

[cobwebcottage]

Yes it's an income generator but it's also makes you think about how you are selling or you wouldn't have made your statement:

'All it makes private sellers do is adjust their prices to take into account the buyer's fee so they  remain competitive with business sellers'

Most private sellers, selling their own unwanted items, wouldn't even need to compete with business sellers. Why would they when they are not looking to make a profit. Most just want a reasonable price for the items they don't want anymore.

[dls-online]

Hi All,

I just wanted to quickly address something which I've seen happen a few times on these forum posts (and I've been meaning to address at some point). I've seen posts like the one I'm replying to which make some pretty sweeping statements without knowing the full facts of the particular matter at hand.

For ease of reference, I'm referring to the comment stating "Once you choose to sell these items, you become a trader". Whilst I appreciate the sentiment of the statement, this in itself, is not a true statement, and I would urge people to refrain from making such assumptions and vague judgements based on very little information having been provided.

At no point in the original post (which this statement was responding to) did the user provide enough details to make an assessment upon if any, or indeed how many, badges of trade have potentially been met. Simply buying items as a hobby, whereby at some stage they might be sold on, does not in itself constitute "trading activities". Please note, I'm not saying they aren't trading, or indeed that they are. Simply there are nowhere near enough facts provided to be able to make such a statement.

Ebay have their own user account status requirements and guidance, but this is not the same guidance and requirements as that which is detailed within tax legilsation and (in the case of trading vs not) established through case law. The use of the word "trading" fulls under the remit of tax law, therefore such statements can be seen as providing tax advice without potentially having the full knowledge and experience in this complex sector (nor the facts to hand) to provide such.

For clarity, I'm a chartered tax advisor (both CTA and ATT qualified) with almost 20 years of working exclusively within tax.

[cobwebcottage]

Did you read the OP's bio then? Because I did.

[papso22]

All good points, but one of the main problems with trading on a private ebay account is not tax and so is not, necessarily, anything to do with HMRC's badges of trade.  Trading is a term in much wider use than tax law, take Trading Standards as an example.

It's the breaking of consumer laws that is the bigger problem, and the criminal act of misrepresenting yourself as a private seller if you are actually a business, due to the wording that ebay puts on your listings.

I agree that some people will throw unfounded accusations about, but equally, some members and accounts are so blatantly business trading on private accounts that no more evidence is needed.

Member of the CTA/AIIT since 2000.

[pjbracer1]

Have to agree the terminology around "trading" is vague at best, we all trade by selling items or even swapping its still a trade. however some of us are not doing this trading for a source of income or as a business, sure we are recover money on item we might have purchased and not longer need but that in itself, is not a business unless the intent is to sell for a profit. 

Selling for a profit can also be coincidental, due to market conditions or how much you originally purchased something for, the original seller might have sold cheap to get rid of it under market rate, so if you were to sell on later after using it or deciding you don't want it anymore and look to the market for a valuation and sell at a profit its still not a business it luck.

Volume sales as the OP has would suggest trading no private seller shifting unwanted tat or selling old things to fund a new purchase would sell that many items even in 20 years, so in his terms he is trading, having 363 items for sale even if hobbiest looks like trading to anyone.

I've just fallen foul of the HMRC warning form Ebay as Ive sold £1900 so far this year, fact is, its only a few items and they were high value but I'm not a trader just selling some old laptops and a car amp etc...

Someone selling on a regular basis as a side line is not in keeping with a private seller which the content is kinda aimed at, if you are a business seller then you are a trader but private small volume sellers shouldn't be treated in the same way for sure

[cobwebcottage]

At that level, the warning is nothing to worry about if you are only selling your own unwanted items. It's just a new procedure to highlight selling income to HMRC. The difference is if sellers buy with the intention to make a profit. Then, they are not a private seller.

[atomkit55]

I have been in on this thread since it started and have also noticed the same issue with people making sweeping statements. I think this is largely caused by the confusion ebay has generated with their new rules. I am still registered as a private seller and have no intention of becoming a business (I couldn’t run a business if I tried). I joined ebay 20 years ago to sell my junk but for the last 10 years have been collecting model kits, the usual stuff, 1/72 scale aircraft plus tanks and ships. I then decided these kits were too small and started buying the larger scale kits. The lack of space and the realisation I would never build the small kits, persuaded me to get rid of the small stuff to help fund my hobby. These have now all been sold, I listed them ahead of schedule to avoid the rule changes introduced in February and I want to keep what I still have (for now). As for becoming a business, it’s not going to happen, the whole point of a business is to make a profit. All the kits I have bought were either, bought from a shop (or ebay Buy it Now) at the market rate, or bought via ebay auction, in which case nobody else thought it was worth as much as I paid. Since I started selling off the kits in 2020, I have made a total loss of £3550.95, that doesn’t include materials like paper, ink, packaging and tape. My losses for the financial year 24/25 amounted to £1081.27. Interestingly, I recently had to give ebay my N.I. number because HMRC requires it. Assuming they want me to pay tax on any profit I made, is it safe to assume my losses will be tax deductable?

[martinwh1]

Whatever Royal Mail allocate to cover up to £150 for loss or damage when Track 48 is used? 

[martinwh1]

"Most private sellers, selling their own unwanted items, wouldn't even need to compete with business sellers. Why would they when they are not looking to make a profit."

I would have though it was obvious that if they charge more than everyone else they aren't going to sell it so it seems logical to look at what others charge and charge a bit less which used to be simple but now involves calculating how much eBay is going to add for each post. If, like me, you are simply disposing of your own collection of items, in most if not all cases, I will have paid far more than I am currently asking so it's not a case of "looking to make a profit " and more a case of "mitigating the loss"

[pjbracer1]

Agree, I can prove im not trading as the items were all bought a long time prior with receipts and not being sold at full value too as someone else said I'm just recouping some cash for other things and if HMRC want to question it which is unlikely I can write off any profits through the losses incurred on the depreciation of the assets over the years!