EBay asking for national insurance number , I sell a lot but buy a lot hobby is collecting coins

[23mrf]

I’ve started collecting coins and I buy a large lot of coins take out what I want and then Sell what’s left over. Been doing this for 9 months, I am about £500 out of pocket from my initial outlay but am selling about £1000 in sales each month, will HMRC take into account that I am not taking out any money from my ebay account and realise it’s just a hobby or am I going to have to pay income tax on £12000 in sales? If so I may have to sell my collection to pay them!!!!

[lees_sales21]

Oh just realised what you meant.

I did use to have quite a lot of listings, which were mostly £2.99 including postage.

Postage was £1.55 and eBay fees were 50p or so (cannot recall the exact figure). 

So I received about a £1 per comic after fees. After an envelope, tape, trip to the Post Office it wasn't a large amount, but I was finished with the comic and the money came in handy and it cleared the loft a little.

With the Buyer Protection fee, it would either make it not worth it for the buyer (75p plus 4% extra) or I take the hit. 

I would then be selling at a loss or a very small amount of money. Just not worth it.

So I just deleted the lot. 

That is probably why you cannot see my items as I have deleted them all. 

They're still in the loft, loading the beams  getting me into bother and I have read them.

I want to sell them, but it has to be worth my while, with work, kids etc I don't have a lot of spare time.

I am not trying to fiddle the tax man. I paid a couple of years ago, when I probably didn't need to, but hey ho.

I want to sell them. Despite a load of software bugs I am okish with eBay. 

I just dislike this buyer protection nonsense.

And I am extremely reluctant to provide eBay with my NIN.

If HMRC want me to send it directly fine. No problem, but not via a third party.

I am old school I don't like giving away my data unless I absolutely have to.

If it means I cannot sell via eBay then so be it. I will sell locally, just a much smaller market. 

[sml192]

The £1,700 reporting threshold is not an allowance, just the point at which a marketplace such as eBay must report your sales.

Whether you need to declare your sales to HMRC and pay tax will depend on if you are buying/making items to sell or just selling unwanted personal possessions.

The £1,000 trading allowance only applies if you are buying/making items to sell.  It isn't used to determine whether or not you are trading.  HMRC uses 'Badges of trade' for that purpose. 

[lees_sales21]

As explained 30 items at £2.99 would be £100ish. Nowhere near the £1,000 allowance.

I did not say that was all I sold, merely referring to 30 items. 

Yes, I sold a few bundles. 

£50 for approx 100 1960s comics.

I was hardly ripping someone's eyes out.

All legal and all above board.

All my own items.

I only went over the £1,000 limit in my first year. I genuinely thought it was £1,000 after fees, not before.

With postage and ebay fees I didnt make a lot.

I think it was about £600 but because I was over £1,000 I had to pay 20% on about £1,020 

So I had made about £600 from my items and a tax bill of about £200.

Great eh?

All for my books, comics and a couple of electronic items that the kids had grown out of.

I paid for them originally at a lot higher price, and all the money I got for them after fees I gave to them. 

So, I had paid for them and then paid out again and paid tax for the privilege. LOL.

As I self declared and paid out they informed me after that I did not need to declare again unless I went over £1,000. 

You can be sure I wouldn't make that mistake again, so would never need to pay tax and I don't have anything worth £6,000 worse luck.

So, I would be handing over my NIN for no reason at all, as there would be zero tax to pay.

And I  truth I am probably owed tax from that year, as I was not a trader.

I have hundreds of comics, which I read and then sell, or rather did. But, I would very quickly go over 30 items. Hence my concern.

Rather than avoid tax I openly informed them and probably didn't need to pay. 

Just not comfortable handing over my NIN

As I think most people should be. 

Good advice though. I do appreciate it.

[lees_sales21]

If you make over £1,000 in a tax year you have to self declare. 

Obviously depending on what you are selling determines whether there is tax to pay, but legally you are mandated to inform them if you go over £1,000 BEFORE expenses.

Hence why I did inform them on my first year on here as I thought it was £1,000 after fees.

So, for going over by £20 I ended up with a tax bill of £200 ish (you have to pay 20% on the whole amount, not just over the limit).

Hence why I would never go that high again.

£1,000 sounds a lot but over a year with comics, some of which are reasonably rare, books, clothes, electronic odds and ends and whatever else it is not that much really.

Certainly a lot less than I paid for them originally. LOL.

[lees_sales21]

Oh I did make my feedback private a few days ago. Not today.

It wasn't to hide anything per se as I have 100% positive feedback. 

I genuinely strive to keep my prices cheap and post as securely and as fast as I am able will work.

I made my feedback private purely so the missus couldn't see all the crp I had bought. 

I already have a loft full of crp, of which she constantly reminds me. 

Most of the feedback will be for purchases.

My account is listed as sales, purely as initially I was selling stuff and had to come up with a name. I opened it in 2021 and was selling, so it made sense. Lol.

Since then I have bought books, leads to replace faulty ones and probs some other bits and pieces like CDs or DVDs.

I wanted 100% feedback and really worked hard to keep that.

I have only had one neutral feedback which was because he said there was too many duplicates in the bundle. I feel that was unfair as I literally put a large bundle together for a decent price and it was all listed how many duplicates there was in the listing.

I bought from eBay, car boots etc over the years and you end up with some duplicates. 

I needed to get rid of some stuff, so just bundled it all up and checked and rechecked how many there was and listed as such.

It wasn't a negative feedback, just a neutral one, but I felt disappointed as I had worked really hard to keep it 100% positive.

[sml192]

---

@lees_sales21 wrote:

If you make over £1,000 in a tax year you have to self declare. 

---

No, you only need to self declare if you are buying/making items to sell, i.e. actually trading.  There is no requirement to inform HMRC if you are just selling unwanted personal possessions unless you sell a single item/set for £6,000 or more. 

[lees_sales21]

That is not what HMRC state.

If you sell over a £1,000 you have to self declare.

I spoke to them over the phone on several occasions. 

One of my best mates is also an Account and I know quite a few people at HMRC.

If you sell more than a £1,000 in a tax year, before expenses are deducted you have to inform them.

I am not saying you would owe money, but you have to advise them  so they can make that assessment.

I don't make the rules. 

They have the power to go back 6 years too. 

Hence I make absolutely certain I do not sell over £1,000 now.

Which given some of the rare comics and gadgets I have I think I could easily breach that. 

Just want to read my stuff, then sell it and get a little bit back for what I paid for it. Some stuff I bought for a lot more than it sold for and the odd thing has sold for more. 

I bought them to read, not to make money.

But something has to go. 

Hard enough selling your stuff when you are a hoarder. LOL. 

[papso22]

Just to correct an earlier post. 

HMRC are not raising the trading allowance to £3,000, they are raising the threshold for the full fat self assessment form to £3,000.  Under that you still have to pay any tax due from trading, it will just be in a simplified way.

[sml192]

I'm afraid your accountant friend has misinformed you.  The guidance on the gov.uk website states quite clearly that you do not usually need to inform HMRC when selling unwanted personal possessions:

'It’s unlikely that you’ll need to tell us about this income or pay any tax, no matter how many items you sell.' 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-you-need-to-tell-hmrc-about-your-income-from-online-platforms

Selling personal possessions

Personal possessions are items that belong to you for your own use. You may have bought them or received them as a gift.

Personal possessions might include things like:

• clothing
• ornaments
• kitchen equipment
• table and chairs
• jewellery
• computers and phones

If you’re selling personal possessions you probably do not have to pay Income Tax on these.

If you sell an item for more than £6,000, you may need to pay Capital Gains Tax. The £6,000 value for a single personal possession for Capital Gains Tax, also applies to the total value of items which form a set, for example:

• chess pieces
• books by the same author or on the same subject
• matching ornaments, such as vases or statuettes

 

Example — selling unwanted items

You’re clearing out your attic and decide to sell your unwanted items using online marketplaces. None of the items you sell are worth more than £6,000.

It’s unlikely that you’ll need to tell us about this income or pay any tax, no matter how many items you sell.

[lees_sales21]

Yes, USUALLY.

However, once you breech the £1,000 limit then you have to.

This was not merely a single accountant, but people I know that work for HMRC and people I spoke to at HMRC when I did indeed go over £1,000 in my first year of eBay sales.

As I said I don't make the rules. HMRC does.

£1,000 is their limit. After that you have to inform them and they decide based on your information what happens.

Otherwise all 'traders' would just do this and say nothing.

Hence, why you have to notify them.

They then assess whether you are a trader or not.

Like I said, they doesn't mean you have to pay tax, as they are personal possessions, merely advise them of what you have done and what you have sold.

If they wish to investigate then they are free to do so and have the power to go back 6 years.

There was only one year where I went over this limit and I paid tax for that. It was gutting, as £20 or so over ended up with a £200 tax bill.

The £1,700 OECD limit I can understand. The 30 items in a year, less so. 

30 items in a year, isn't a lot.

Especially if you are selling low value items like a comic, or books say.

If those 30 items are say new, or higher value then fair enough, but not 30 books that are say 30 or more years old and low value.

Maybe eBay is trying to push private sellers away , as perhaps there is not enough money in it for them, compared to businesses and businesses have complained for years. Maybes they have decided to go down that route more.

I think it will backfire though, because if more and more private sellers leave, they will make less purchases.

And the BPF is already putting some buyers off already, especially on the low value items.

I wish they would just revert to the seller fees and less of this BPF nonsense.

They might make a lot of money in interest, but in the long term they will lose out I feel.

Personally, if I leave, I won't return and I won't be buying either.

And I feel a lot of people will do the same.

I genuinely gave the very best service I could for all my buyers, dashing home from work to catch the Post Office before it shut.  Giving refunds on postage where I had made a bit extra, without being asked. 

I even did that on the one neutral feedback I was given. I gave a refund on one postage amount and only charged the buyer the exact price it cost me, minus the miles of tape I used to parcel it up. Lol.

I genuinely tried my very best to give a great service. 

All for nothing it seems.

☹

Put it this way would I comment so much, or post on FB trying to get them to revert back, if I didn't care?

I just want to read my stuff and grudgingly have to say goodbye to it and hope to obtain about a £1 per item after postage. 

That way someone can read and enjoy them after me. 

I couldn't really price them any lower because of postage and the eBay fees previously.

About a £1 was ok by me. If I counted my time, effort, petrol etc I would have probably lost money, but I didn't bother going into it that deeply.

I think one item got lost in the post a couple of years ago, which was unfortunate as it was a fairly rare box of model soldiers. 

I gave the buyer a full refund and showed him the postage receipt. I kept checking the tracking, but it never showed. 

Was gutting as I really wanted the buyer to receive it, that meant more to me than the sale. For the simple reason I knew how I would feel if I was waiting for something and it didn't arrive. 

The buyer left me great feedback, as he could see I had genuinely done all I could to help him, even after giving a full refund.

I have had some great sellers and buyers on here and built up a rapore with some of them. 

I will be saddened to leave eBay, but I cannot sell items and make a loss. Like most people I need the money, hence selling in the first place (as well as decluttering). 

I just feel they have made something that was working, albeit with a few minor issues, into something where sellers are waiting to be paid and buyers having to pay extra for protection they already had.

Just very disappointed in them and I am not the only one.

[papso22]

No!

Unless you breach the capital gains tax threshold you do not have to tell HMRC yourself about sales of unwanted personal possessions that go over £1,000.

Please provide a link to HMRC guidance that says you do as all I can see is guidance that says you don't.  (The 'unlikely' is to allow for CGT).

[lees_sales21]

It states 'usually' and 'unlikely'.

This is because of the £1,000 threshold.

It clearly states the £6k CGT further down as a separate point of reference.

I assume that will be £3k after the last decrease and the appropriate tax  year.

My guidance is those 2 points, an Accountant,  several workers at HMRC and conversations with several people at HMRC over the phone and their online chat.

Also, I declared what I was selling and the value of sales and was subsequently given a tax value to pay. After several weeks of speaking to them over the phone they stated that it had to be paid.

My source?

HMRC themselves.

Not merely their website, that had conflicting information if you delve deeper.

Actually after speaking to them and doing a self assessment as requested.

I had in the comments these were my personal possessions from when I was a kid, and total sales were less than £1,100.

What did disappoint me was the fact that I had to pay 20% on the total and not just over the limit. Considering I had spent hundreds on postage and ebay fees I had actually £600 more in my account and then had a tax bill of about £200.

Had I kept it at £999 before expenses I wouldn't have had to pay a penny. 

I had to obtain a UTR (or somesuch, it was about 2 or 3 years ago) and self-assess and then pay. 

That is my proof and source.

HMRC themselves.

Not just looking at a website. 

And like I stated, they can go back 6 years.

Well 6 tax years to be more precise.

[papso22]

It seems you were trading so correctly declared that to HMRC.

Your experience does not provide actual evidence that all sellers of  unwanted personal possessions have to tell HMRC when those sales go over £1,000.

[lees_sales21]

No, I clearly stated I was selling comics and books I had as a child. Mostly from the 1980s.

Also, electronic toys that the kids had grown out of. 

All personal items.

All explained to HMRC.

I have dealt with HMRC directly. Have you?

I would not just read the website, as if you delve further it is conflicting! 

[papso22]

As a member of the CIOT I have dealt directly with HMRC for over 30 years.  As well as gov.uk,  I rely on HMRC internal guidance (published to the public), and sources such as Croner and LexisNexis. 

You are wrong and were wrongly advised.

Oh, and by the way, in certain circumstances they can go back 20 years. 

[lees_sales21]

Please explain how I was wrong, when I dealt with several people online and over the phone at HMRC?

Explained what I was selling and the total value including all fees etc.

Required to do a self assessment and pay the tax 'owed'

Not sure how else to put it?

I sold personal items I had, had for 40 years and electronic toys I had bought for the kids perhaps ten years earlier.

They all stated I needed to pay as I had taken in £1,000 before expenses.

Not sure what else you want me to say.

I spoke to several people at HMRC and did all the self assessment, put down what the items were and that they were personal. How long I had, had them etc and they said I owed them 20% of the lot.

Not sure what else to say.

☹

I felt quite aggrieved about it, as you can probably tell and examined this to at least 5 different people and they all explained that I had to self assessment, because I had taken in more than £1,000.

I explained what the items were (mainly Victor comics) from the 1980s including summer specials which sold for quite a lot, and they stated I had to pay.

Sorry if you have been advised differently, I can only go off what all the advisors told me.

☹

[jckl1957]

Just to clarify one more thing.

You seem to think that Ebay want your NI Number for some purpose of their own; they don't.

They have to give that information to HMRC.  I understand that HMRC already has everyone's NINO but because it is personal and unique, it does allow them to have an overview of extra income a person is earning which may be gained from several sources.

As you can see from the link below, Ebay requesting your NINO is perfectly legitimate.  They have been instructed to ask sellers for this information by the government.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/selling-goods-or-services-on-a-digital-platform

[papso22]

I can't explain why you were given the wrong information,  I am simply trying to prevent other members from thinking what you were told is correct.

[lees_sales21]

It is the OECD that has pushed for it.

I am well aware of the statutory requirement and have stated this on several posts.

I also have a letter from HMRC stating that I do not have to advise them in future, unless I take in (before expenses) £1,000 in a tax year.

Hence my point. I have it directly from HMRC that they don't need my information, because they are satisfied I am not a trader and only selling personal items.

From experience I would never go near £1,000 again as it ended up costing me a lot of money, including an apparent 20% of a £14 underpayment via my PAYE at work.

Had I not done the right thing and told HMRC I probably wouldn't have received a bill or had to pay the PAYE discrepancy. I hadn't in any of the other 30 or so years from work.

I just did the right thing and paid what they all stated was due.

It isn't about covering anything up. I have been upfront and honest with HMRC throughout, mainly so I didn't get stung down the line. 

I simply don't feel my NIN would be safe with eBay. That is all. I have had a few software issues with them, none of which have been resolved and speaking to customer advisors can be frustrating as they say send us screenshots and videos in, which I have, some of which they have responded to, some not, but all the issues were not resolved.

If they cannot get that right, why should I trust them with something really as important as my NIN?

I would just sell less than 30 items, but that is not a lot over a tax year, especially with comics and books.

I have always been a hoarder, books, comics, CDs, DVDs, odds and ends. Drives the missus nuts. 

It might be me, but I don't see why once I have read something I have owned for 40 years or so that I should be taxed on it, but I have, even after speaking to 5 advisors at HMRC. 

I was 14 when I bought some of them. That is 40 years ago or so. As advised they did not see me as a trader, but I had to pay tax as I had taken in more than £1,000 before fees.

I don't have the receipts from 40 years ago obv, but that could hardly be classed as trading, buying them 40 years ago.

The electronic toys V Tech etc I bought for the kids, birthdays, Xmas etc. They were bought for them to play and learn from. They have out grown them so I sold them and gave them all the money. So I paid for them originally and then paid them the money they made. Again, hardly trading.

One month I had £5.79 left. I know because I was really worried. Selling my old items helped pay the bills. If I had the choice I wouldnt part with them, but in the end something had to go and we needed the money. 

Again, how does that make me a trader?

HMRC themselves stated I was not, hence the no need to self declare any more unless I went over the £1,000 limit again. Which obv I won't.

If you look I sold some Star Trek DVD box sets. They went for about £20 including free postage. I think postage was about £8 or so. 

So, I actually got about £12 for them. They were bought for me as a Christmas present over 20 years ago for well over a £100.

If I am a trader, I am not a good one! 🤣

Some things went for a decent price, some a major loss on what they originally cost years ago. That is a chance you take I guess.

At the end of the day the last 3 or 4 years I needed to declutter and get some money in to help pay the bills. 

As any hoarder will tell you it is really hard to part with stuff, so getting hit with tax on top of that just compounds it.

Thank you for the advice. People reading through this will be well informed, which is great, as I doubt they have read through the whole HMRC and eBay Ts and Cs.

I have no problem HMRC having my data and will quite happily surrender it, as I gave before. I just don't feel comfortable doing that through a 3rd party I.e  eBay. 

There should be an option to prove you have done it externally.

From day 1 I kept a record of all my receipts and created a spreadsheet of sales and expenses. I don't have it in front of me but it was a little over £1,000 income, £400 expenses and a 'profit' of £600ish all for personal items.

I still keep all records just in case, but I am only selling mine or the families stuff and probably breaking even on what they originally cost me at best overall and then paying the kids their 'share' from their stuff. 

[lees_sales21]

Fair comment.

I can only go off my personal experience.

I was upfront and honest and told them what I had sold and how much they sold for, what expenses I had etc. 

I even had to pay 20% of an underpayment via PAYE. 

Had I not been honest I doubt I would have had to pay anything, I never have in any of the other 30 working years. 

Sometimes being honest and upfront isn't the best policy, but I will continue to be that way.

More fool me eh?